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pdig69
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 113
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 Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 10:40 pm Post subject: IBD question |
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i've been reading articles about IBD and can't find a definitive answer for my quesion.
Once a bp has IBD, how long will he have to survive?
Even a general time period would be good, don't really need exactly how long.
Is it possible for a snake to harbor the virus for a year and not know?
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hhmoore
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 1:25 am Post subject: |
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| pdig69 wrote: | | i've been reading articles about IBD and can't find a definitive answer for my quesion. |
That's because, unfortunately, there are relatively few definitive answers available.
| pdig69 wrote: | Once a bp has IBD, how long will he have to survive?
Even a general time period would be good, don't really need exactly how long.
Is it possible for a snake to harbor the virus for a year and not know? |
Again - no concrete answers...there is little information about how long after contracting the virus a python develops inclusion bodies or becomes symptomatic. Once inclusion bodies develop, and symptoms are noted, however, pythons usually succumb to the disease within 6 months - most frequently wthin 1-3 months.
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deborahbroadus
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Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 6729
Location: Baltimore, MD
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| hhmoore wrote: | | pdig69 wrote: | | i've been reading articles about IBD and can't find a definitive answer for my quesion. |
That's because, unfortunately, there are relatively few definitive answers available.
| pdig69 wrote: | Once a bp has IBD, how long will he have to survive?
Even a general time period would be good, don't really need exactly how long.
Is it possible for a snake to harbor the virus for a year and not know? |
Again - no concrete answers...there is little information about how long after contracting the virus a python develops inclusion bodies or becomes symptomatic. Once inclusion bodies develop, and symptoms are noted, however, pythons usually succumb to the disease within 6 months - most frequently wthin 1-3 months. |
Harald, isn't it the Boas that becomes symptomatic, but the BP succumbs within months? I have heard some breeder claim that his BPs survived IBD...*I have my doubts on that story.* It's unknown (right word?) except for this one claimant for BPs to survive IBD or become symptomatic.
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hhmoore
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| deborahbroadus wrote: | | Harald, isn't it the Boas that becomes symptomatic, but the BP succumbs within months? I have heard some breeder claim that his BPs survived IBD...*I have my doubts on that story.* It's unknown (right word?) except for this one claimant for BPs to survive IBD or become symptomatic. |
Boas can remain asymptomatic for an unknown amount of time even after developing inclusion bodies. Even after showing symptoms, they can survive for an extended period of time.
Pythons, once they are symptomatic, typically die fairly quickly...often within 1-3 months, as I said. I think the part that threw you was when I said that it isn't definite how quickly after contracting the virus inclusion bodies form, or how soon the python will become symptomatic. What I meant by that was most individual accounts of IBD progression in pythons begin with onset of symptoms, as it can be difficult to ascertain the point of infection. Even with incidents that specify the arrival of a diseased animal, the onset of symptoms in pythons within the collection has been somewhat varied. (I think it is generally agreed, however, that the period from infection to displaying symptoms is significantly shorter in pythons - I haven't heard of any cases where pythons were considered asymptomatic carriers.) I think it is widely believed that once a python is exposed to IBD, its days are numbered...but I can't recall if I have seen case studies where pythons were inoculated with IBD, and the progression was tracked. If anybody is aware of any - please PM me with a link to the study, or a citation. (I do know of a study where this was done with boas, and the ones injected with the virus showed inclusion bodies within 10 weeks
I have seen cases where symptoms similar to IBD were found in pythons, but subsequent necropsies were not conclusive to IBD. In those cases, inclusion bodies were found...but not in the organs typically affected by IBD. Further study indicated paramyxovirus infection as the most likely factor.
Here is an exerpt (from a different source) some may find interesting - the Boelens python mentioned was one of the cases I had encountered in my readings:
| Quote: | The aetiology of boid IBD is currently a matter of controversy. Retroviruses have been isolated in cell culture and detected by electron microscopy in tissues from affected snakes.1,5 However, these may be endogenous retroviruses that are not aetiologically associated with boid IBD.6 Ophidian paramyxoviruses (OPMV), of which more than 18 types have been recognized, are associated with necrotising or proliferative interstitial pneumonia, meningoencephalitis and mortality in viperids
and colubrids.7,8,9 Eosinophilic inclusion bodies, along with occasional multinucleate syncytia, are usually produced in the cytoplasm of infected cells. The degree to which boids are susceptible to OPMV is uncertain. OPMV type 7 has been isolated from a reticulated python (Python reticulatus) with respiratory disease in the UK.10 High antibody titres against OPMV were detected by haemagglutination inhibition in serum from an unaffected reticulated python following an outbreak of disease in
viperids in the USA.9 In situ hybridisation was positive for paramyxovirus
sequences in the brain of a Boelen's python (Morelia boeleni) with meningoencephalitis and eosinophilic cytoplasmic inclusions in glial cells in the brain but not in other tissues.11 There is currently insufficient evidence to implicate OPMV in the aetiology of boid IBD, despite the pathological similarities. The cytoplasmic inclusion bodies in boid IBD are widely distributed in epithelial, nervous and lymphoreticular tissues.1 Infection with OPMV may produce inclusion bodies in the lungs, brain, liver and kidneys, although they are less numerous, multinucleate
syncytia may be present and there is usually a more pronounced suppurative and necrotising pneumonia.8,9,11
The proliferative pneumonia in the affected snake may be attributable to boid IBD, since there were only mild lymphoplasmacytic inflammatory infiltrates in the lungs,limited necrosis, minimal exudation of heterophils and no evidence of multinucleate syncytia. A profuse growth of Salmonella enterica serovar San Diego was obtained from the lungs at postmortem examination and large numbers of bacteria were present in the pulmonary exudate. The Salmonella isolate may have been an
opportunistic colonist of the lungs in an immunocompromised snake secondary to boid IBD, possibly related to regurgitation and inhalation of gastrointestinal contents. |
http://vp5.afip.org/wsc/wsc06/06wsc12.pdf (scroll down to page 5)
If anybody wants to fry their brain, here is an article that is somewhat related to that "C type" retrovirus mentioned in the summary of the one quoted above, and it discusses the presence of endogenous viruses (this wasreferenced in the above quoted text).
It's a brain buster, and I resorted to skimming: http://jvi.asm.org/cgi/content/full/76/15/7607
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pdig69
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 113
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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I am so worried about my snakes. Like HIV, it can stay within us for years and we won't show signs. I'm hoping this retrovirus doesn't act the same. I don't want to end up owning 30 snakes my first year collecting and find out my first one I ever bought had it. I wouldn't know what to do!
Huh, thx moore. I've had mine for a little over two months and they are looking good 
I have a sick one downstairs, should i give him up?? i posted a thread about him, took shots of his face. it looks like mouth rot. I don't think I've seen him stargaze, but when he poops it's jelly watery and messy. Nothing solid, I'm worried about her. Especially for the well being of my others.
Is a one floor difference from the healthy ones good enough to not get the IBD, if the sick one does have it? I dont even know right now if she does.
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deborahbroadus
Moderator
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 6729
Location: Baltimore, MD
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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| pdig69 wrote: | I am so worried about my snakes. Like HIV, it can stay within us for years and we won't show signs. I'm hoping this retrovirus doesn't act the same. I don't want to end up owning 30 snakes my first year collecting and find out my first one I ever bought had it. I wouldn't know what to do!
Huh, thx moore. I've had mine for a little over two months and they are looking good
I have a sick one downstairs, should i give him up?? i posted a thread about him, took shots of his face. it looks like mouth rot. I don't think I've seen him stargaze, but when he poops it's jelly watery and messy. Nothing solid, I'm worried about her. Especially for the well being of my others.
Is a one floor difference from the healthy ones good enough to not get the IBD, if the sick one does have it? I dont even know right now if she does. |
You should have posted the link here of your thread. It's very difficult to determine if an animal has IBD just from symptoms, because there could be a number of other factors involved: substrate, temps, r.i., fumes, etc. However, a video could possibly help.
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hhmoore
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| pdig69 wrote: | | I don't want to end up owning 30 snakes my first year collecting and find out my first one I ever bought had it. I wouldn't know what to do! |
First thing is to slow down, lol. I understand the fever, but acquiring 30 snakes your first year is too much. Learn to deal with a couple of them first - get the basics down, and deal with the issues everybody encounters.
| pdig69 wrote: | | Huh, thx moore. I've had mine for a little over two months and they are looking good |
That's great - except you contradict yourself in the next sentence.
| pdig69 wrote: | | I have a sick one downstairs, should i give him up?? i posted a thread about him, took shots of his face. it looks like mouth rot. I don't think I've seen him stargaze, but when he poops it's jelly watery and messy. Nothing solid, I'm worried about her. Especially for the well being of my others |
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Why mention giving him up, as opposed to taking care of him?? Mouthrot is generally a secondary issue, but it can be a primary infection (usually related to a wound in the mouth, in that case). Watery stools can be related to a variety of factors - have you taken this animal to a vet?
This kind of reinforces my first statement...While I have not seen your other thread (as Deb said, a link would help), and I certainly haven't examined the animals, the symptoms you have described here are fairly common & easy to deal with. If you are so willing to give him up without trying to fix things, you have no business getting any more snakes. If those symptoms are indicative of a more serious problem, you should be finding out what that problem is and dealing with it before any animals enter or leave your collection.
| pdig69 wrote: | | Is a one floor difference from the healthy ones good enough to not get the IBD, if the sick one does have it? I dont even know right now if she does. |
That all depends on you, and your quarantine practices. Given the degree of separation, cross contamination would be the most likely factor if the others get sick. Just curious - why are you even considering IBD as a possibility?
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hhmoore
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 12:15 am Post subject: |
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I just looked back at a couple of your threads....
I don't know what sources you are referencing, but what I saw in your "I'm sad" and "possible stargazing" threads certainly didn't scream IBD to me. fwiw, in "I'm sad" you mentioned mouthrot, but the pictures don't show anything that would confirm that. Yes, there is some crud at the front of the lower jaw, and in one of the labial thermoreceptors, but the images aren't enough to offer a solid diagnosis. The "look" would probably suggest that there are some respiratory symptoms, but without a good shot of the nares, or the inside of the mouth, that would be nothing more than guesswork. It says you spoke with a vet, and somebody with some experience...did either of them examine the animal? Or were they going on your perceptions?
What are the temps and humidity in its enclosure? When was the last time it shed? Is it eating? Any other symptoms? You say you are worried - why haven't you taken it to a vet? You say you are worried that your snakes are unhealthy, but you don't want to pay? And you are talking about getting more snakes??? Yeah, I know, I'm not being nice - but if you aren't going to take care of the animals you have, I don't want to hear thoughts about a larger collection...and giving these away so you don't have to take care of them might be easier for you, and better for them, but it SCREAMS that you should not get anymore.
Forums are useful tools, but while they can help you correct some mistakes, and smooth some of the bumps caused by inexperience (and sometimes even serve as a replacement for experience if you get the help of experienced people)...they are not a replacement for veterinary care. I shudder when I see people throwing out diagnoses and treatment options online - too often the people doing it don't have the experience/knowledge to base it on...and even when they do, there usually isn't enough information presented to come to a reasonable conclusion.
I hope your snakes do well - whether it be with you, or somebody else.
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pdig69
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 113
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 12:49 am Post subject: |
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I purchased that snake already sick at an expo, because the lack of my experience with illnesses i just bagged her. I'm worried about IBD, because the reports that I have read say mouth rot is secondary due to IBD.
Then loose stool means parasites. IBD can kill my entire collection and I do not want any risk factors in the vaccinity of my good collection. I'm not an experienced pro yet, so giving her up would be in the snakes best interest as well as mine. A veterinarian was willing to take her in, that is why I feel confident about her future with this someone else.
I don't want to pay to find out if she is sick because tests cost hundreds where I am. Blood and poop tests will run me close to 200. I don't want her tested because she cost me 25. Now, that sounds terrible but it's reality for me.
I'm not worried about their well being as I am overly cautious about what I do.
Now, if she cost me 1000, then a 200 test would be done right away.
So far, she seems like she is improving. That scabby stuff around her receptors seems to have spread. I'm still sanitizing her adn her tank. Besides that, her heat is cranked to 96 on the hot spot and she has water. Humidity comes when I spray her down every other day, but i try to keep it at a minimum to safeguard against any respiratory issues.
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hhmoore
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 2:04 am Post subject: |
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| pdig69 wrote: | | I purchased that snake already sick at an expo, because the lack of my experience with illnesses i just bagged her. I'm worried about IBD, because the reports that I have read say mouth rot is secondary due to IBD. |
Again, I don't know what reports you read, but IBD is pretty far down on the list of things that would lead to mouthrot in a BP. IF the snake has mouthrot (has this even been confirmed?), it could be from any number of reasons - ranging from something as simple as a piece of substrate stuck in the mouth to a serious infection. The mouthrot component, by itself, is easily dealt with unless you let it progress without treatment...but if it is a secondary infection, it will probably come back unless you treat the primary issue.
| pdig69 wrote: | | Then loose stool means parasites. IBD can kill my entire collection and I do not want any risk factors in the vaccinity of my good collection. |
Correction - loose stool CAN mean parasites.
And there you go with IBD again - Yes, IBD can decimate a collection... but that doesn't mean one should run around screaming IBD everytime their snake gets sick. If, in fact, you think there is a chance this is IBD, THE LAST THING YOU SHOULD DO IS GIVE IT TO SOMEBODY ELSE. Talk about irresponsible and inconsiderate - you think a snake in your possession might be infected with a deadly virus so you pawn it off on somebody else. Way to go, Ace. IF you think its IBD, you have 2 choices - euthanize it, or offer it supportive care. Don't risk spreading it by giving the snake to another keeper.
| pdig69 wrote: | | I don't want to pay to find out if she is sick because tests cost hundreds where I am. Blood and poop tests will run me close to 200. I don't want her tested because she cost me 25. Now, that sounds terrible but it's reality for me. |
Veterinary care is a part of keeping animals. If an animal in one's care gets sick, there is a responsibility to deal with it. To say that you only paid $25 for the animal, so you don't want to provide veterinary care is more or less on the level of labeling your snake as a disposable pet. As far as fecal exams go, they, too, go with the territory. Unless one is inclined to empirically treat for internal parasites (there are arguments for and against that), you're shooting blind without an running a sample to identify what is there...it isn't as if one medication treats everything. Of course, you only paid $25 for the snake, and the cost of blanket treatment would cost you more than that. I understand money being tight, but s*** happens - you were the one that wanted snakes. (I'm not saying that one shouldn't be able to draw the line someplace & end treatment, but you aren't even willing to start)
| pdig69 wrote: | | I'm not worried about their well being as I am overly cautious about what I do. |
uh huh, that's why you bagged up a sick snake at an expo and brought it home to your collection.
| pdig69 wrote: | | Now, if she cost me 1000, then a 200 test would be done right away. Now, if she cost me 1000, then a 200 test would be done right away. |
I commented on this once, then deleted it...but after everything else, I might as well throw it in. Just curious - what would your limit be on a $1000 snake? Of course, you've got no business even talking about spending $1000 on a snake if you are offering financial reasons as an explanation for refusing veterinary care.
| pdig69 wrote: | | So far, she seems like she is improving. That scabby stuff around her receptors seems to have spread. I'm still sanitizing her adn her tank. Besides that, her heat is cranked to 96 on the hot spot and she has water. Humidity comes when I spray her down every other day, but i try to keep it at a minimum to safeguard against any respiratory issues. |
So 96 on the hot spot...perhaps a bit high, but I won't dwell on that. What about the rest of the tank?
Humidity comes when you spray her down every other day? In other words, you don't know what the humidity level is...and therefore don't know just how much your husbandry is to blame for this problem.
You are trying to keep the humidity at a minimum to safeguard against respiratory issues? You do realize that prolonged low humidity can CAUSE the type of problems you are seeing, right (excluding the loose stool, of course). This goes back to what I said before about generic diagnoses and advice - you don't automatically lower humidity without knowing where you are starting and what the impact of that change might be. (Do you have any idea how many times I have seen that advised online or heard it said? And the person offering the advice has no idea of the current conditions...would they give the same advice if they knew the RH was only 35% to start with?) Lowering the humidity can be the right thing to do sometimes...but it can exacerbate the problem, too.
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hhmoore
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 3:13 am Post subject: |
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Oh, btw, while I was reviewing your other posts, I ran across one that indicated you were about to purchase a female pastel. Common sense should dictate that if you are concerned about the possiblity of disease in your collection, STOP BUYING SNAKES!!
Even if you get off your IBD kick, you should exercise care and judgement about purchasing new additions when you aren't able (or willing) to care for the ones you already have...and that is before you consider the ramifications of introducing a new animal into a possibly infectious environment.
FYI, one should look at more than the cost of an individual animal when weighing the option of spending money on medical care...for example, what is the potential impact on the rest of your animals (and how much are THEY worth to you?)
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pdig69
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 113
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 11:50 am Post subject: |
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Well...haha. Ok, I would be pawning it off to someone who told me not to run tests...to keep humidity at a low...and wouldn't let me euthanize the damn thing!!!!! Then willingly accepted it for treatment, and this person was a VETERINARIAN! Giving it up shouldn't even be an issue as whether or not I can take care of bp's or not. I've been taking care of her since I got her, and I said, she seems to be improving! She's active, she eats weekly and she doesn't mind being held. Vet said if anything changes then her conditions are getting worse. I've already been coached by a professional on how to manage her well being. Thanks
Lack of humidity problems would result in improper shedding. Damage to her well being would mean dehydration. She has water in her tank, I try to make her drink every week on top of what she does in her personal time. Vet said, lower humidity to every other day.
The infection is downstairs in the opposite side of the house, you're acting like I'm collecting them in a big rubbermaid in the middle of my room.
This answers my quesion about mouth rot with IBD, http://www.anapsid.org/ibd.html.. read paragraph four moore. This is from Melissas Kaplan, apparently she is well-known.
And this answers my question to how long a boid can have this disease. http://www.anapsid.org/deanne.html
So, say what you wish about how I take care of the BP. I've been coached on what to do, and tests o na 25 dollar snake isn't worth it. I'd rather give it to the vet and he can do the tests for free. Butt for now, the bp seems to be improving.
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hhmoore
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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You just don't get it, do you?
If you really think the snake might have IBD, you shouldn't be passing it off on anybody else. Period. If you really think it might be IBD, you should close your collection - nothing in or out - until you are sure. If you can't grasp that concept, I don't know what to tell you.
I'm not the one suggesting this is IBD, that keeps coming from you. In case you haven't figured it out from what I have posted, it's pretty unlikely.
There is no point in me reiterating any other comments. In this case, I hope for two things: one is that you were forthcoming with accurate information when discussing things with the vet, so he(she?) could properly tailor the instructions to your situation. The other is that the snake gets well, in spite of your attitude that it isn't worth spending money on.
Good luck.
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