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hhmoore
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 503
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 Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| deborahbroadus wrote: | | How high do you have the thermostat? You will have to tweak it a bit to get the surface temps where you want them, |
Exactly, Deb. As I said in my last post, after setting the thermostat (and giving the heater/Tstat combo time to get things going), one has to check measurements & adjust. These aren't the highest quality thermostats, and, while they do a decent job, they aren't the type of things one can set and never think about again (sometimes, people get lucky, and hit things right off the bat, though).
Another thing people need to remember is that these are on/off type thermostats...so they aren't going to hold a constant temperature Based on the temp at the probe (and the setting), the unit will turn power to the heating device on and off. Temperatures will fluctuate, sometimes by a considerable margin - this will be affected by the sensitivity of the Tstat (or how much above/below the "set" temperature it will go before cycling), the speed with which the heater warms up, how much substrate the heat has to go through, the ambient temperatures (the cooler they are, the more you will notice the swings), probe placement, etc. For these same reasons, you will get different temp readings depending on how long the heater has been on or off, too (now that I've said that, I'm sure it seems obvious, lol).
As for the different readings between analog and digital, as a rule, I would be more inclined to trust the digital...but all of these devices have a range of accuracy, and some are better than others. Most of the analog gauges I have seen used in reptile tanks tend to be fairly cheap - in terms of both cost and quality. I picked up a number of inexpensive (about $7) digital thermometer/hygrometers at WalMart this winter. They don't have probes, so they measure only where the unit is placed, but they are pretty handy little things...and the readings seem pretty accurate (at least they are where I expect them to be, even when it was reading 21% RH in my dining room before I fired up the humidifier)
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fschwartz
Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:48 am Post subject: |
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The house temp was a little warmer today, and the thermostat and heaters had no trouble keeping the temp at the right place. That's great for now, but when it gets colder, I'm gonna have issues, I think.
We purchased some aspen shavings as lighter substrate. We're going to try that when it's time to change it out. You may be right- the stuff we're using is pretty dense, there may just be too much of it, blocking the heat. The problem is, if he burrows, he may get burned if he hits the glass on the bottom. We don't want that. I may try to thin out what's currently in there to see if that helps.
Anyway, right now, with the two UTH's, and a red bulb on the top in the middle, the temps are maintaining well. I'd rather not have to rely on the bulb tho. As you guys have said, this is something we're going to have to figure out what works best.
thanks again for all the feedback.
Frank
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deborahbroadus
Moderator
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 6730
Location: Baltimore, MD
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| fschwartz wrote: | The house temp was a little warmer today, and the thermostat and heaters had no trouble keeping the temp at the right place. That's great for now, but when it gets colder, I'm gonna have issues, I think.
We purchased some aspen shavings as lighter substrate. We're going to try that when it's time to change it out. You may be right- the stuff we're using is pretty dense, there may just be too much of it, blocking the heat. The problem is, if he burrows, he may get burned if he hits the glass on the bottom. We don't want that. I may try to thin out what's currently in there to see if that helps.
Anyway, right now, with the two UTH's, and a red bulb on the top in the middle, the temps are maintaining well. I'd rather not have to rely on the bulb tho. As you guys have said, this is something we're going to have to figure out what works best.
thanks again for all the feedback.
Frank |
I am glad that things are starting to mesh for you. Please continue to look at pictures of the member's set ups and search the boards for the solutions that other's grappled with before you. Keeping reptiles in tanks that are not meant for them will be tricky, but it has been done.
Quite a few of us (in general) have given up the struggle and switched to racks. 
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fschwartz
Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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I started a discussion on another thread, and it was suggested I move it off the sticky thread, so here we are. The last response was from hhmore...
| hhmoore wrote: | | fschwartz wrote: | | We bought the Big Apple BAH-1000SC thermostat, and have been fighting with the thing since the day we got it. |
Fighting with it is a losing battle. You aren't going to get it to do what you want it to...you have to learn what it can do, and use it accordingly.
| fschwartz wrote: | | Let me back up and explain the situation. We have the 20L tank from Zilla. We are using aspen substrate. On the cooler side, we have a small UTH, and if we keep that running 24x7, along with a red bulb overhead, it stays exactly at 80, but the bulb lowers the humidity. On the warmer side, we have a medium UTH, supposedly made for 30-40 gallon tanks. We found that we have to use the aspen substrate, or the heater will never get the temp up to 90. So, on the warmer side, we have the BAH-1000SC thermostat. The temp is all over the place. Very inaccurate. It goes as low as 85, and as high as 97. After reading this thread, I'm thinking we may want to get one of the Helix controllers. But I have a question. This will only regulate one side of the tank, correct? So I'd have to buy two of these thermostats if I wanted to do away with the overhead light, which is affecting the humidity? |
you have a 20 long, and 3 different heat sources...which of them are plugged into your thermostat? (it sounds like just the larger UTH.) At what temperature is the Tstat set? Where is the probe for the thermostat located? Where are you measuring temperatures? and how? What is the wattage of the red bulb you are using? Are you leaving that light on at all times? If not, how much of the temp fluctuation is related to the light being turned on & off?
I am not familiar with that particular thermostat (though I have looked it up & read the company blurb), but it really sounds more like a setup problem than a Tstat issue. UTHs don't do a whole lot to increase ambient temperatures in a screen topped aquarium - what they do is provide surface warmth. While a defective Tstat is a possibility, I am inclined to think that the wandering temperatures you are seeing is due to a combination of factors: 1) thermometer placement (and/or crappy thermometer), 2) probe placement, 3) fluctuating room temps, and possibly user error (for lack of a less direct, but still accurate term).
You say that you have to use aspen, or the temps would never reach 90. What is the basis for that statement? Did you try another substrate first? what was it, and what happened?
Have you checked the temp of the uncontrolled UTH? Have you measured surface/substrate temps under the light? Have you confirmed whether the UTH controlled by the Tstat is reaching the desired temperature, and that the Tstat is cycling properly?
An in depth discussion on this situation is probably better suited to a different thread -
I also wouldn't recommend buying an expensive thermostat without figuring out why you are having these problems. If it isn't a Tstat issue, it would be a waste of money....and you will probably still experience the same issues til you sort through everything. A proportional Tstat will help minimize temperature fluctuations by adjusting power to the heat source. In this case, it will stabilize the temperature of the bigger UTH (since that is what is plugged into it. Yes, the Helix has 3 outlets (as does the Herpstat, for that matter, and it is a bit less expensive), but it's intended use is to operate like heat sources in separate cages. One can use it to operate different items, as long as the impact of that decision is thought through. |
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fschwartz
Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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Hello, thanks for your response. You can find a lot more detail on my issues here, including photos of the substrate I used before the aspen, and positioning of the thermometer and probes: http://www.rcreptiles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3674
| hhmoore wrote: | | you have a 20 long, and 3 different heat sources...which of them are plugged into your thermostat? (it sounds like just the larger UTH.) At what temperature is the Tstat set? |
You are correct. Just the larger UTH. The Tstat has been set at many different temps. The obvious choice would be 90, but when it's set at 90, the temp is somewhere up around 97 or so.
| Quote: | | Where is the probe for the thermostat located? Where are you measuring temperatures? and how? What is the wattage of the red bulb you are using? Are you leaving that light on at all times? If not, how much of the temp fluctuation is related to the light being turned on & off? |
See photos in the thread linked above. The probe for thermostat and thermometer are on the warm side, just under the surface of the substrate, above the UTH. I don't know the wattage of the red bulb, it's the light that came with the Zilla kit. I'll see if I can find that out, it's not labeled. The light and the small UTH on the cooler side are on 24/7. The temp on that side is measured by the thermometer on the side of the tank. It's probably a bit warmer there than on the substrate surface, but this is how I've seen everyone else's setups being measured.
| Quote: | | UTHs don't do a whole lot to increase ambient temperatures in a screen topped aquarium - what they do is provide surface warmth. While a defective Tstat is a possibility, I am inclined to think that the wandering temperatures you are seeing is due to a combination of factors: 1) thermometer placement (and/or crappy thermometer), 2) probe placement, 3) fluctuating room temps, and possibly user error (for lack of a less direct, but still accurate term). |
The thermometer is a pretty good one. I have tried one of those analog thermometer/hygrometer, but that is junk.
Fluctuating room temp can definitely be a possibility. This is in my son's bedroom, and the room temp does fluctuate- typically between 68 and 72, depending on the time of day.
| Quote: | | You say that you have to use aspen, or the temps would never reach 90. What is the basis for that statement? Did you try another substrate first? what was it, and what happened? |
Yes, we originally used the stuff that came with the tank (see photos in the thread linked above). It was nice in terms of holding in moisture, but was very dense, and the snake didn't burrow in it. deborahbroadus suggested the substrate may be too dense, so we tried the lighter aspen shavings, and it did make a difference.
| Quote: | | Have you checked the temp of the uncontrolled UTH? Have you measured surface/substrate temps under the light? Have you confirmed whether the UTH controlled by the Tstat is reaching the desired temperature, and that the Tstat is cycling properly? |
No, that I have not done. I can do that. The Tstat is going on and off. I am not sure what you mean by cycling properly.. At the moment, it seems to be working, but this is the first time in days.
| Quote: | An in depth discussion on this situation is probably better suited to a different thread -
I also wouldn't recommend buying an expensive thermostat without figuring out why you are having these problems. If it isn't a Tstat issue, it would be a waste of money....and you will probably still experience the same issues til you sort through everything. A proportional Tstat will help minimize temperature fluctuations by adjusting power to the heat source. In this case, it will stabilize the temperature of the bigger UTH (since that is what is plugged into it. Yes, the Helix has 3 outlets (as does the Herpstat, for that matter, and it is a bit less expensive), but it's intended use is to operate like heat sources in separate cages. One can use it to operate different items, as long as the impact of that decision is thought through. |
I agree, I didn't mean to start up a huge discussion in this thread, but it was directly related to the topic. I guess I should have continued in the other thread tho. sorry.
Anyway, at the moment, it seems to be holding at around 90 degrees. I'm not sure if that has something to do with the room temp, but the weather has been muggy and a bit cooler the past few days.
I appreciate that you took the time to respond. That was a lot to think about.
Frank
PS, here's a photo of the placement of heaters and probes, and the new substrate. (the thermostat and thermometer probes are together).
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laurmann2000
Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 38
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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So does it seem to be working well now and keeping the right temp? I find I am constantly playing around with my t-stat and overhead lights. I have a very similar setup to you as well as same size tank and UTH though I don't have the smaller one, just the larger one.
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hhmoore
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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Nothing wrong with making a post about the Tstat in that thread...but the tendency is for people to respond to things and it would have continued to add side discussion to the stickied topic . If I had been home, I would have copied/pasted my post over here (but it's enough of an ordeal to get things posted from there, lol). Thanks for continuing in your previous thread, as it provides much of the background info.
Anyway
Does anybody know enough about this Tstat to say how much below the set temp it will go before cycling back on?
Have you checked the min/max temp readings on the thermometer?
I mentioned a few different reasons for drifting temps in an earlier post...
room temp IS a factor, but, under ideal circumstances, it should have minimal impact on the temps delivered by a thermostatically controlled device. However, I think you might want to take your thermometer probe and put it on the other side for a day or two... (I know I explained this here someplace recently, but this is a slightly different situation & I don't feel like looking through old posts right now - to those that have read this already, your tolerance is appreciated) Just because you have the big UTH on one side, doesn't automatically make that the "hot" side. In your case, you have a smaller, but uncontrolled, UTH and a bulb on the side opposite the device your Tstat is controlling. The UTHs tank recommendations are (or at least they used to be) based upon the size of the pad, not the temperature they achieve. That little one will hit the same 130 degrees (or whatever) that the big one will, it just occupies a smaller area. The small one, being left on constantly, may well exceed the temps achieved on the other side. Couple that with the fact that there is a (probably 50w, based on what I saw at the Zilla website) bulb over there, and I'm inclined to think you have effectively reversed your hot/cool sides. (I haven't played with lights & tanks in a long time, but I know from past experience that a 100w CHE on one side of a 20L will create a temp range of about low 80s - 120+ in a 72 degree room <yes, to those of you that remember me previously referencing a 150w on a 30L, the temps acheived are pretty close...and I used both setups> - and that is with no other heat sources. I'm sure the "spotlight" you have creates a much more snake friendly range, but I couldn't begin to guess at what temps are actually acheived.
Now, if the above scenario is actually representative of what is happening in your tank, a few changes might be all it takes to optimize the setup and get things right where you want them
**Disclaimer** As mentioned, I haven't used (tanks,) lights or stickon UTHs in many years...in that time, many items have become more reptile specialized, and I have no idea how similar/different current products are.
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fschwartz
Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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Your suspicion was correct. I put another thermometer into the "cool" side, and the temp was almost 100. This is with the probe right under the surface of the substrate, over the small heater, and under the lamp.
I just unplugged the lamp, so we'll see what the temp drops to.
This is exactly why I appreciate this forum and the members so much. In all the reading we did, everyone seems to have a dual thermometer, with this sort of setup. I wonder how many other people unknowingly have this same issue.
Thanks a lot! I will post updates as we go.
Frank
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hhmoore
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| fschwartz wrote: | | Your suspicion was correct. |
I love being right
The little UTH will still get pretty darned hot. You may need to consider some other options - possibly plugging that into the Tstat, as well, so it goes on and off with the other one (not the ideal situation, but it might be good enough). Another thing to consider is continuing the use of the light, minus the small UTH, but possibly moving the light closer to the center. That will help increase ambient temps, still provide a nice warm spot (the Tstat will continue to regulate the temp of the large UTH, and allow for a cooler area for better thermoregulation.
Good luck!
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pdig69
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 113
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 2:20 am Post subject: |
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Hey fschwartz,
You need to dedicate a single day to make this right, it'll never be completey reliable if you don't make that sensor your friend for a day 
I use the BAH - 1000 now, and it took me hours to put it in a place for near correct temp settings! I actually called bigapple today to see if I can return it for a proportional thermostat. Couldn't, but still going to buy a proportional thermostat, they are much more reliable if you really can't hit the nail on the coffin with this one. The BAH- 1000 is absolutely good for one or two reptilians tops, but when you own more, you need more accuracy. A curious BP may undo your settings in seconds! They surely love themselves some fulcrums
The problem with the 1000, I spoke to Steve on this one there at BigApple, is it does not read ambient air temperature accurately with low frequency heat waves. Examples of low freq would be heat mats, ceramic heaters and heat tapes. Anything without a light source basically, so it needs to be as close to the power unit as possible..which would be your large heat mat in this case.
*Now, it can't be taped touching the glass, and it can't be taped too far. It literally needs to be centimeters away from the glass. As for the probe itself, I taped half of it so that half of the tape acts as an insulator.
*Next, try setting the Tstat around 86. The Tstat seems like it takes some time for it to register at 86 so the temperature for that area will actually rise to, say 90 as an example. You will need to use your digital temp probe as a temp tester for the top of the substrate, put it right on top of your aspen and check what the temp is when it turns off. Don't worry about getting it all correct at first. Try to achieve your thermostat settings correctly, since this is the most important, then you can manipulate the rest of your heating sources for an optimal outcome.
~If the Tstat turns off too quickly at 86, you'll need to retape the position of your probe a bit higher. Remember, move centimeters at a time, this one is finnicky.
~Next problem I ran into was the probe being too far away. If the Tstat is set to 86 and doesn't shut off, the temp for the substrate may rise to near 100. Retape the probe lower and repeat process with testing.
Overview:
1. Make sure all heating elements you will use that aren't on your Tstat are plugged in. Plug them all in to start off with and see what you get. Use your digital temp probe to measure all areas (substrate on hot side,substrate on cool side, and ambient air temperatures) of the tank when your thermostat turns off and when it turns back on.
2. I wouldn't recommend plugging more than one device into your Tstat if it isn't the same type of heat source. Other things may fluctuate differently and it could be possible that the temp will drop much too low if you "put all your eggs in one basket". Then you have 15 degree variables all day!
3. You will get close to perfect conditions, I promise! It just takes time, and time well spent. Once it's set correctly, then all you have to do is take a quick glance at your settings every night. Maybe you might have to move the tin foil for some airflow, but beyond that, the temps will be goooood.
PS, Hope this helps!!
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deborahbroadus
Moderator
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 6730
Location: Baltimore, MD
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 8:40 am Post subject: |
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69, When putting down someone else's words it's required that the text be ascribed to them. Please, next time, give credit where credit is due.
Thanks!
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pdig69
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 113
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| deborahbroadus wrote: | 69, When putting down someone else's words it's required that the text be ascribed to them. Please, next time, give credit where credit is due.
Thanks! |
That text is all me from the hours I spent adjusting my 1000, oh the agony!!! Steve only told me about the low frequency heat waves 
I'll be the first to hand over my gold medal if someone else deserved credit for it
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