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deborahbroadus
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Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 6061
Location: Baltimore, MD
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 Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 11:27 am Post subject: Lessers/Mojaves |
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Is it me, or is anyone else seeing the amazing resemblance between Lessers and Mojaves?
Nick, Ron can anyone pinpoint the differences (of course I have a book *Morphs*). The book doesn't clarify any differences between the two, in my opinion.
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NickMyers03
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Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 1762
Location: fredericksburg va
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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your right deb the have ALOT in common. im trying to find some writtings by Randy Remington who best explains it... i will add more as i find them but here is a few. there are MANY diffrent genes that involved in the lesser/butter/Mojave complex and i will try and get a group of all the snakes that make a white snake that are in THIS complex. when they are talking about the platty daddy they are talking about the ORG platty that produced a darker version of itself ( called the LESSER...get it its a lesser platty) now there is also a dilute gene ( platty sib) that when a lesser or butter breds its it produces the platty daddy or butter daddy. there has not been a breeding done but the ORG owner to show that the mojave will do the same but it is thought that the Crystal ball is made from this same gene ( "person 1" bred a Mojave to a normal female "special" and produced the crystal) they are all diffrent forms of the same genes which allow them to produce supers with each other. even though the yellowbelly makes a white snake ( ivory ) it is not of the same gene complex so it can not produce a super when bred to one of the white snake complex genes... sorry for the ramble im eating lunch so it sounds off thats why 
| Quote: | it's low enough that we have more proven morphs than chromosome pairs at this point so it's a given that some morphs are on the same chromosome.
I personally think there is for some reason a big group of white snake alleles - different mutations of the same gene. Why this gene would have so many different mutant forms I don't know but possible candidates for this group include lesser, mojave, phantom, Vin Russo, butter, and maybe even the dilute gene that turns lesser into platy. Just a hunch and lots yet to be proven or disproven.
However, multiple mutant alleles is a new area for us snake keepers so it will take some getting used to if it does turn out to be the case. For example, a "super phantom mojave" wouldn't be possible if phantom and mojave are different versions of the SAME gene. This is because a snake can only have two copies of any one gene (one from mom and one from dad) and a two phantom versions and one mojave version is too many if they are all the same gene.
I have seen pictures of yellow belly mojave and Ralph has been producing the phantom goblin for years both of which seem to indicate that the ivory probably isn't the same gene as this white snake group. To really prove it you would need to produce a goblin marker karma or something like that. Or maybe Ralph has already produced normals and goblin marker phantom from crossing goblin marker phantom X normal and that would prove them separate non linked genes too.
It's hard to know when it's best to split names and when best to use the same name. Goblin for example. Ralph named it long ago but its sure looking now like it might be the same as yellow belly. Should the names be merged now? Goblin is probably a better name but who knows, maybe it's a little different than other yellow bellies and needs a separate name but it does add to confusion now. |
| Quote: | | I was reading somewhere about a rat gene that diluted the color of other rat morphs to make faded versions. Sounded like the "daddy" effect in lessers and now butters and perhaps some day mojave's and even phantoms. Of course it's not up to me what to call it but "dilute" seems more descriptive than "daddy". "Platy" is descriptive but seems confusing to me now that it's been seen in butters and not just the original lesser line. Should there be Platy lesser and Platy butter? Actually "lesser" seems a little confusing also - are regular butters now lesser butters? Hard to change names every time we find out something new though. |
| Quote: | A recessive dilute gene is what I originally thought too but the dilute butters Ralph produced this year has got me thinking it's more complicated than that and really liking Hahaman's theory that dilute is an allele of the lesser group.
From Ralph’s 2005 clutch 17 we have “Butter/Platty” from breeding a normal looking daughter of Platy Daddy to a butter male, a product of crossing the two lines without any inbreeding. The problem with dilute being recessive is that in order to produce the dilute butter without any inbreeding the butter line would also have to have had the dilute gene. Maybe that gene isn't so rare or maybe butter and lesser are related from Africa so it's still a possibility. It doesn’t sound like there has been much inbreeding in the butter line yet to test for that (or a homozygous butter). But I’m still thinking the lack of inbreeding to produce a dilute butter tends to point away from recessive.
There is also the issue of no normal looking offspring of platy being crossed together producing any dilute normals. This tends to support the idea that the dilute gene doesn't do anything by it's self. It may well follow the rat dilute presidents of only modifying certain other morphs but not normals.
But if a single dominant type dilute gene turns a lesser or a butter into the dilute version (platy) then to explain the lack of platy from platy X normal you need some sort of allele theory or at least linkage by being on the same chromosome to keep platy daddy from passing both genes to the same offspring.
So, it's far from proven yet but it's a theory to test against. If lesser X lesser ever produces a platy it will be blown out of the water in favor of the recessive dilute gene theory |
| Quote: | So if a platy is homozygous dilute and also het lesser then a lesser het dilute X a het dilute sibling would produce 1/8 chance platy (the 1/4 chance homozygous dilute overlaid with the 1/2 chance lesser).
However, if platy is only het dilute then a lesser can't be het dilute (or it would be a platy) and lesser X het dilute normal sibling would produce 1/4 platy. I'm not up to date on my totals on this computer but the sheet I have access to with tallies from RDR’s posted results through 2003 or perhaps even 2004 shows slightly more than ¼ platy but the sample size is too small to make anything of it.
The definitive tests between the two theories could be lesser X lesser and platy X platy. If lesser X lesser ever produces a platy then that would certainly support the idea that a platy is homozygous dilute and that lessers can be het for it. If platy X platy ever produces a lesser it would tend to support the idea that platys aren't homozygous for whatever turns a lesser into a platy and lean towards the hahaman theory that the difference between lesser and platy is only being het for something. |
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NickMyers03
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Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 1762
Location: fredericksburg va
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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i realized if you know nothing about the genetic make up of these morphs ( well at least what we have found out so far) then the post above will throw you for a loop...
Mojave- imported animal, co-dom, makes a white snake with a purple/grey head and blue eyes when bred to another Mojave. makes a solid white snake with blue eyes when bred to a lesser/butter.... tends to be the darker of the white snake blue eye gene, believed when bred to the platty sibs ( het dilute) to produce the crystal
Lesser - the platty daddy was imported by a breeder and bred to normals and produced an animal that wasnt as diluted as the ORG animal. these were called lesser plattys. all normals were held back from the clutchs by the ORG male. when a platty or lesser is bred to one of the normal sibs from a platty clutch it produces Plattys,Lessers, and normals ( het for dilute gene). lessers tend to have a good amount of yellow in their pattern.
Butter - Org butter imported by another big breeder and is NOT the same as the lesser, butters are a little darker but have a creamy look. they tend to REALLY lighten up as they age. ( i love them). when bred to a lesser or mojave they also produce a solid white snake with blue eyes showing they come from the same mutant gene but are NOT the same snake.
there are more snakes that are also in this gene pool but its easier to stick with these for now
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deborahbroadus
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Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 6061
Location: Baltimore, MD
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| NickMyers03 wrote: | i realized if you know nothing about the genetic make up of these morphs ( well at least what we have found out so far) then the post above will throw you for a loop...
Mojave- imported animal, co-dom, makes a white snake with a purple/grey head and blue eyes when bred to another Mojave. makes a solid white snake with blue eyes when bred to a lesser/butter.... tends to be the darker of the white snake blue eye gene, believed when bred to the platty sibs ( het dilute) to produce the crystal
Lesser - the platty daddy was imported by a breeder and bred to normals and produced an animal that wasnt as diluted as the ORG animal. these were called lesser plattys. all normals were held back from the clutchs by the ORG male. when a platty or lesser is bred to one of the normal sibs from a platty clutch it produces Plattys,Lessers, and normals ( het for dilute gene). lessers tend to have a good amount of yellow in their pattern.
Butter - Org butter imported by another big breeder and is NOT the same as the lesser, butters are a little darker but have a creamy look. they tend to REALLY lighten up as they age. ( i love them). when bred to a lesser or mojave they also produce a solid white snake with blue eyes showing they come from the same mutant gene but are NOT the same snake.
there are more snakes that are also in this gene pool but its easier to stick with these for now |
Thanks much..the first explanation was a bit overwhelming  ..the second one was more simple and easier to understand.
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