RCReptiles.com

[junkopardner]

Buck-

Thanks for the response. The reason I asked about the impaction "risk" associated with ingesting substrate while feeding is because you certainly hear/read a lot about it being a possibility, but not so much about it "happening".

As for my feeding question, I meant frozen-thawed, not "pre-killed". Sorry.

And what my question was for those that do feed in the main enclosure, when they let the dead prey just lay in there for awhile, with the snake crawling around/on it, is there a sanitation issue if he doesn't eat it, you re-freeze/re-thaw it again, put it in there again, he doesn't eat it again etc.

Does this allow harmful bacteria into the enclosure?

J

[Buck_99]

J,

I need to poke around on that. On another forum dedicated to green tree pythons we had someone knowledgeable on the subject talk at length about the harms of re-freezing prey. It had nothing to do with the snake rubbing around on it, although we didn't really discuss it from that angle. It was a food spoilage issue.

Following that conversation, I don't re-freeze prey. The few times I tried it prior to that, my snakes wouldn't take it anyway. That may have been a coincidence, though.

EDIT: A quick search around the internet shows me there's no real consensus on this. One guy has a snake that he says prefers prey that's been thawed a second time. Weird. Anyway, I can't find the thread I mentioned.

[junkopardner]

Buck-

I've heard stories of "spoilage" when your Frozen/Thawed rodent has been re-frozen/re-thawed more than twice. In the beginning (when he wouldn't eat for nothing) I re-froze and re-thawed, but never more than once. The reason for this is that I was worried about bad bacteria and I also heard stories of "gamey" prey "exploding" when constricted around, and causing a horrible mess.

In the beginning, he would constrict on the prey, but anymore it's just straight down the hatch. I don't know why the change, but maybe it's because he knows it's dead already.

Is there any data on this? By that I mean, are BP's smart enough to know that their prey is dead? The reason I ask is because I don't "jiggle" it. I just drop it there. My theory on every living thing is that it will eat if it's hungry enough. If whatever creature hasn't eaten in a long, long time, then obviously there's a reason and that needs to be addressed.

So I would love to know the following about frozen/thawed:

What is the "threshold" of bacteria on them when thawing/re-thawing?

Do BP's know their F/T prey are dead?


J

[Buck_99]

J,

This is one of those questions I don't know the answer to. I just follow my instincts. I've got one snake that never takes F/T but never turns down live prey. To my own nose they smell different, so I can only imagine the snakes can tell the difference too. I'm pretty sure I have the prey temperature spot on, but I can't rule out the possibility that when I dangle the item I don't accurately immitate the movements of live prey, and so that may be why the snake doesn't eat F/T.

I have some snakes that I can drop F/T prey in with them and it gets eaten, and others that will eat only if I dangle and jiggle the prey. Perhaps they would eventually eat non-dangled F/T prey if they got desperate enough, but I don't mind the dangling and the extra quality time it affords us.

As to bacteria threshold, that sounds like another article waiting to be written by anyone interested enough to do the research. I am not interested enough to do the research. My uneducated guess is that twice-thawed prey may be fine with smaller prey items (mice, weanling rats), but as the prey items get bigger and it takes longer to thaw them out to their core, bacteria have more time to build up in the outer layers. Thus parts of a large rat may be spoiled at the conclusion of a second thaw. Just a guess. Thawing out large prey takes so long that it's awfully inconvenient, so I am no longer feeding F/T prey to my adult snakes anyway.

Buck

[junkopardner]

Buck-

I just wonder if a BP knows the difference between dead and alive. On the one hand, if you "have" to jiggle it to simulate life, then you're tricking it into thinking it's alive when it's dead. But the fact remains that it's still dead, and I don't care if you jiggle it's head off of its body. If they're that easily duped, then do they really "know" the difference?

As I said, his feeding response is so automatic now that when I put him in another enclosure, there is no jiggling or anything. He's just good to go.

I would be more than happy to research the bacteria issue, so a point in any direction would be appreciated (I would probably have to speak to some Herpetologists with a big Biology background on this).

J

[Buck_99]

[deborahbroadus]

I would love to see a video of his eating a prey from start to finish. It's amazing that you have had the BP for less than 6 months (how old is it) and it's already conditioned to eat dead prey in a different container and doesn't miss a meal.

Awesome!

Mo'Money is off feed right now, but he's one that eats f/t and doesn't require jiggling and he's over 2,000 grams. Some of my girls will eat f/t and do not need jiggling. one that was chewed up before I got her is terrified of live and will only eat f/t no wiggling. It is amazing that a hatchling is already conditioned to eating f/t (no wiggling) after less than a year.

[junkopardner]

I've been dying to video him eating but I don't have a video cam currently. I may try to borrow one, and failing that I may rent one. It's pretty cool how quick he is now.

So I've probably jinxed it now....

Let's hope not. I'm going to feed him again in the next few days.

I think the reason he doesn't need the jiggling is because I never jiggled it. He went from eating live (before I got him) to just a dead F/T lying there. Once he finally got hungry enough and ate it, there's been no problem. When my girlfriend called me sometime ago and told me she was feeding him and "jiggling" the prey I freaked and told her not too. I think it's just what you condition them to. If you always jiggle, then you're probably always going to have to jiggle, whether you want to or not. I tried to establish everything the way I wanted it early, and for the most part everything took root.

J

PS- He's a little over a year old now.

[JDS3]

Well I currently only have 2 snakes so I am not extrememly experienced but I feed my ball in a seperate container and my corn inside his tank. Mainly because my corn is a freak and will bite the crap out of my hand and its not very fun taking him out. Also my corn pretty much just takes the mouse from me and swallows it. No constriction and little strike so there is pretty much no chance of him swallowing any substrate. My ball though constricts and is very nice so he is easily put into a container. Although I have little experience I have worked with a very experienced handler that provides snakes for Hollywood movies and he has tons of snakes venomous and non-venomous. He feeds all of his inside their tank and the majority of them are still very docile. He has about 4 pythons that are 10 feet + and they all eat inside their container and they are still very friendly once out of their tank. Although inside their tank they are extremely agressive. It is amazing how one snake can go from striking like crazy inside its tank then once its out it is completely docile.

[citylight]

It depend on how you train your snake and whats the mood of the snake, I have 9 snakes, and i have no time to put in separate container, but sometine i put it in a separte container.

[Kaa]

well, since my pastel had her first meal in a separate tub I guess I keep her feeding the same way. That way I also have time to clean her tank.

Ulf

[JUNIOR728]

[deborahbroadus]

Most of us subscribe to the theory that if it's not "broke," there's no need to "fix" it. One of the concerns with feeding in the tank was addressed, there was no need for anyone to take the suggestions literally and change the way they presented food to the animals.

Suggestions were to help those having feeding issues..some animals prefer to be in their tanks and not moved and some are cool either way. Whatever works.

I agree that as long as the animal is eating, there's no need to change up he routine.

[Dread1318]

I feed Stripe in her tank. So far i haven't had a problem with her mistaking me for pray. But I think it's because I go through the ritual of removing her hides and water dish from her tank. I think she's learned that when her tank is emptied its time to eat. I use cage carpet in her tank so I don't have to worry about her swallowing any bedding either.

[dibiz]

daisy and cupcake eat in their regular enclosures, but (i think) they know when me sticking my hand in there means food because i take out their hides and all the foliage and stuff (so they don't get in the way of striking or the mouse doesn't try to go hide or something)
maybe they really don't know because of this, but i haven't had any problems yet