RCReptiles.com

[RonCrawford]

[deborahbroadus]

Love your signature, Ron!

The discussion room, as with any tool, can be abused and some will do just that if allowed to. We have had some nice discussions on IBD that stayed civilized and we learned from them, We have had knowledgeable people come on and give us new advice that was outside our scope of acquisition (if we knew what to look for).

I think I can speak for most of us when I say we continue to want to learn. However, there are some people that do not want to learn, their intention is to find nice quiet forums where everyone gets along and respects each other and INTENTIONALLY create dissension and hide behind the rationalization that "they are just trying to learn." This fools no one.

These characters are recognized when they come on by the majority of forum members that can identify the irrationality of their points. As in any other forum they are usually "outed" if they can't learn to get along with everyone.

I had hoped by inviting intelligent bp breeders and owners that we could stimulate some interesting discussions, it wasn't the intention for anyone to create a "bashing" playground and it will be brought under control.

However, it must be recognized that a TROLL creates his own problems usually and all one has to do is give the person enough rope to hang himself.

[RonCrawford]

[junkopardner]

So everyone (anyone) -

Since you refuse to listen to me on this subject, how many experts would you like me to get to weigh in on this subject, in print, with credentials AND contact information listed? Just let me know.

And as for this "troll" nonsense, go back and re-read the beginning of how this thread started.

#1. Someone asked a question on whether or not they should keep two BP's together that had been living together for 4 years (one since birth) successfully.

#2. I answered by saying if it ain't broke, why fix it and listed the accepted guidelines for successfully housing two together.

#3. I get called out for not helping, giving "bad" advice on the subject and having the gall to contradict some senior members.

#4. I naturally retaliate as anyone would when they're being accused of something that is completely baseless and false.

#5. I'm then deemed a disruptive Troll

#6. Then, all of the so called "evidence" presented on the dangers of housing two BP's together is totally contradicted by Zoo's, Herp Doctors specializing in snakes, etc.

And that's it in a nutshell.

If I were a Troll, and need to be "neutralized", then that would tantamount to "neutralizing" Frankenstein's monster and giving Frankenstein a free pass for creating him. Responsibility and accountability is a two way street here.

Simply put, the reason my tone hasn't been necessarily lovey-dovey is because I was provoked by being called out for giving bad advice that very simply and factually was not bad advice.

With that being said, I am fully capable and willing to drop the "tone" and speak about these matters in terms of cold hard data and facts.

I apologize for my tone as my reaction to being called out was my responsibility. But then again, you can't exactly accuse someone of something that is false and possibly expect them to play all nice, either. In that respect, I feel that that burden of responsibility lies squarely on the shoulders of those who called me out for giving "bad advice" when very simply I was re-iterating a commonly accepted practice at the world's most respected Zoo's and within the highly educated herp. society.

So, now that I've accepted responsibility for my less than congenial tone, and apologized to anyone who may have been offended, I'm ready to move on with a debate about the "facts" regarding this issue.

Respectfully Yours,

Jonathan

[deborahbroadus]

[ryancbj22]

[junkopardner]

Deb-

Our older member Uncle Flo has already replied to this point and his point was very well put. Your two or three (going to search for more) "experts" against what is commonly known and accepted in the snake keeping community by hundreds of breeders and keepers. That have been keeping reptiles *dare I say* longer than some experts have had their degrees.

"Commonly known and accepted?" I completely disagree. And I would love to know the "hundreds" of breeders who feel this a risk if the guidelines are followed. (I'm sure there are some breeders, like some owners, that have had a bad experience with this "because" they didn't follow the guidelines.) Once again, there are NO risks, and I'm asking you to "prove" the claim that there are when done correctly.

BP's laying on top of one another (I was told by a Herpetologist/Breeder) was often due to one area or hide being a temperature that they both wanted. The simple solution was to provide more than area/hide that was the "same" in temperature.

Also, even them laying next to or on one another is not a "risk" anyway. Like I said, the only caveat is 2 "males" during breeding season (when they're more aggressive) can sometimes engage in "dominance" behavior if housed together. But if it's "breeding" season, and if you're a breeder like Ron, why would you house 2 males together anyway? You wouldn't make much money as breeder that way. Now if you do it to provoke them into fighting to raise testosterone levels, as Ron mentioned in his blog, then that's entirely different.

But as I pointed out in a previous post, the only caveat is 2 males during breeding season, and EVEN then, the consensus thus far has been that it's not "deadly", but they could fight so it's generally advised if your going to keep 2 males together during breeding season, keep an eye on them. I will be calling "many" more doctors and experts in this field and posting their info and views in the next few days.

As for fear of "who's crap is who's" and "risk of impaction", I'll get into that in a separate post as I've got quite a bit of information on this.

And Deb, as for as the rest of this (thanks for the post history but my memory's not that bad) there is simply no instance of me taking a "hostile" tone in any of these posts. Did I "question some of the advice being given? Yes. Is there something wrong with that? One of the main reasons I question a lot of the answers I'm given on any given subject is simply to "test" the person to see how "much" they really know regarding the subject. This is not ever personal or meant to offend anyone, it's just to get an idea about how much they know, and where their knowledge "hits the wall", so to speak. But the issue here was that you can't name "one" instance (before I was called out) where I was hostile in tone. Questioning some the answers I was given? Yes. But if that is deemed "hostile" or "offensive", then your sensibilities are to delicate and it's nothing some thicker skin couldn't cure.

I wasn't using just "stick-ons" either. The main thermometer I was using was a 2 buck aquarium tube thermometer with a suction cup from Wal-Mart.

The funny thing is after purchasing a very nice Digital with a probe, it's readings were always within a degree of the digital (and the gun). The reason I upgraded to the digital probe was so I could move the sensor around in various places to get ideas of temps in different spots. It became clear after the weather started to get warmer here that I was going to be constantly fiddling with the temps (same way when it was colder) which is when I decided to get the Herpstat and forget it.


WHERE DID YOU GET THIS UNDERSTANDING? At this point I turned you over to someone else because you had started to become defensive and I thought that would be counter active to the education we were trying to provide..I can be so factual that people think me brutal at times.

You mean that Ball Pythons will instinctively go to where it's warmer or cooler depending on what temperature they need (ie. if they get too hot they'll instinctively go to where it's cooler and vice versa?) Where did I get that understanding?

And where exactly did I become "defensive"? I think that a lot of your problem with me is that I sometimes question the answers given.

No one here has done it in the fashion that YOU were planning to do it, and no one was going to do it just to give you some data when we know it is not a good idea.

Well, I'm still doing it and keeping an ever watchful eye. I will keep you updated on any changes etc. I was just being told it was "bad" and was asking "why" it was bad. I was told because of "stress" and the potential for infection etc. I stated that, according to the symptoms of stress, he didn't seem to really be showing any. So then I asked "who" exactly on here had done what I was doing. The answer was no one had ever done it.
And like I said, so far so good. And again, if there are any changes at all I will let you know. And if he starts showing "any" signs of stress, I will quit and be the first in line to say I was wrong here. But since no one has done it, I guess the jury is still out.


but it's based on denial, in my opinion.
It was all downhill from here in other posts you continued in this vein..apparently now in your mind we are a bunch of people living in denial in the dark ages, scared of our own shadow, dumb..etc..wow. You must have read "How to Win Friends and Influence People." I am tired of trying to show you where you are being illogical. It is very difficult to be logical with someone that continues to abuse logic.

Well, if you'll notice, I did say "in my opinion". My opinion on the pet store issue was just that; my opinion. And your argument against them is "your" opinion. I can definitely see where you're coming from on this issue, and I think you can see where I'm coming from. There's no real "right" answer here. But still, if you (or anyone) thinks that boycotting etc, is going to work, in my opinion, it's denial. It's denial because there is no evidence that the trade and sales of BP's is slowing down any, even with people buying from breeders. The fact that you can get a BP anywhere supports this "logical" observation.

Oh boy, Sheila!!! Tell him about your HERP DOCTOR, HEY older members..wanna come back and share your stories? Send out the peal to the other forums!! He needs evidence that some of us do know MORE THAN the HERP Doctors. Awww..I forgot, we don't have papers (degrees)!

Know more than Herp doctors that specialize exclusively in snakes, including Ball Pythons? I very much doubt this. And you still never answered my question from the other post:

If you, and the majority on here, think that communally housing 2 BP's is a "risky" practice, do you really think that some of the top rated Zoos in the world would do it?

Do you think that the San Diego Zoo, who has the largest reptile exhibit in the world, would have done it for years and be doing it now if it were considered a "risky" practice in the educated herp. society?

And no, a PhD in a highly specialized field doesn't hurt the validity of your advice; do you know what's involved in getting a PhD in Herpetology?


Let me tell you again..their evidence did NOT contradict what we said, we said: It can be done, but the risk.... and you kept ON ON ON completely overlooking what was said by people that had had herps longer than your experts probably had their diplomas at this point you became a TROLL.

Well, actually it did contradict what you said because you were saying that it was "risky" and they were saying if you followed the guidelines it wasn't risky. If it were considered risky, so many of the world's best zoos wouldn't do it.


It was bad advice because you told her to leave them together. Unfortunately, it wouldn't be a good idea to keep them together as we aren't zoologists, but I am quite sure a few of the members pointed out that it CAN be done but the dangers were...etc...YOU however wanted to believe that we were being "negative" and "fear mongers".[/color]

If it's perfectly acceptable to communally house them, and they had ALREADY been together for 4 years (one since birth), then how was it bad advice to just keep them together and follow the guidelines? I really want to know; in specifics.

And it seems that you're contradicting yourself a bit here when you say "it wouldn't be a good idea to keep them together as we aren't zoologists".

You discredit highly trained herpetologists and zoologists with PhD's that keep snakes communally housed in top zoos, you then try to discredit zoos by posting an article from the "humane society", no less, and then you say it wouldn't be a good idea to keep them together because "we aren't zoologists".

Well, which is it?

Deb, I would highly recommend you just call the San Diego Zoo and talk with the Reptile Exhibit about it, for starters. They'll be the first ones to tell you that, if you follow the guidelines, it's very easy and there's no risk. You don't "have" to be an expert to do it successfully. You just have to follow very, very basic guidelines. The main one being "feed them separately".

And to suggest "cannibalism" as a possibility if you feed them separately is simply untrue, and does reek of fear mongering. Can you see how one could think that based on the evidence? To my knowledge (and the people I spoke with), there are no documented cases of a BP "swallowing" another BP if they are simply fed separately.

And even those occurrences are extremely rare ("swallowing" when feeding them together). If you want to eliminate that risk, just follow the guidelines and feed them separately and the risk of that is completely eliminated.

Still in TROLL mode and you were advising her to leave them together "if it ain't broke" you are not here to give advice, you are a newbie and not even one with more experience than most of our other members. Please refrain from giving any advice on anything other than what you yourself actually know and have experienced yourself *do me the courteousy of not repeating that statement about "experts." We do have a rule about back-seat modding here.

The advice I gave, including the guidelines, is solid, proven advice. You can't argue that. Ron has said it in his blog, the guy who wrote the Troubleshooting article on Ron's site has said it, many, many other experts have said it, and more importantly, zoos all over the world who actually "do" it, do it with success and without incident.

I think what you mean is that my advice was bad because it ran contrary to your advice.

In closing, I "am" a novice, just starting out. But the advice I gave on this subject is good, solid advice based on all the evidence within the herp. community with regard to communally housing BP's.

In other words, just because I'm a newbie doesn't mean I can't give good, solid advice if the advice is based on empirical evidence and backed (and practiced) within the professional herp community.

Your apology is accepted but you are still in TROLL mode, we do not want to debate this. We do not care what some Zoo is doing. Change the subject and ask another question.

I am speaking about this as calmly, rationally and articulately as I possibly can. If that's being in "Troll" mode, then I don't know what to tell you. I'm not trying to "disrupt" the forum in any way.

I'm simply trying to make it clear that when done properly, the advice I gave isn't bad advice at all.

And I don't like being called out for "not helping" and giving "bad advice" when it's clearly untrue.

Newbie or not, the advice I gave is professional advice based on facts and evidence that it is not risky when done correctly.



*this post has been edited for content

[deborahbroadus]

[junkopardner]

Deb-

I wanted to thank you for editing my response to Ryan out of my post but leaving Ryan's original "troll" post about me stand in its hypocritical, unfounded and unedited glory.

I understand that with you leading the "troll" movement against me why you would resort to being completely unobjective and biased here.

Thanks for being "fair and balanced".

You should try to get a job at Fox News. I'm sure they'd hire you in a nanosecond.


J

[magana559]

[junkopardner]

Doncha just love cute little emoticons?

I know I do.

[deborahbroadus]

If you want to debate issues, DEBATE issues.

Posts that contain person implications, hints, innuendos will be edited for content.

You said you wanted to debate facts. Please do so without implying anything about the other members. Future posts in this vein will be deleted.

[junkopardner]

Yes Ma'am.

So just to get this straight, "implications, hints and innuendos" will be edited for content (and by "edited I mean "deleted").

But out and out calling someone a name (ie. Troll) is alright?

Ok.....

I got ya.....

(I'm sure if we dug up Stalin he would agree it's fair enough...)

J

[deborahbroadus]

[ohyeahnow]

What a crazy post. I wish this forum were more active on a daily basis. Is apples and oranges being compared. A zoo may house more than one animal together. Zoos set up environments to suit the animals natural environment as best they can. They have large spaces to replicate natural environments doing so means they can have much more space, and native conditions than those of use possibly can.

I see so much talk about credentials, but not one journal article that has been peer reviewed provided. If this area is to debate issues, shouldn't everyone be researching and supplying their sources. This allows other to review the literature and draw their conclusions as to how it has been interpreted.

I frequent another forum, where yes everyone is nice and cozy. They also follow accepted care practices common amongst hobbiest and breeders alike, since to my knowledge no one posting here works at a zoo. Perhaps providing educated responses supported by literature from experts in the field would be a place to start.

I once saw a thread on IBD getting heated with some arguing without researched knowledge, what a knowledgeable poster was correctly saying. So I took the time to research peer reviewed articles from experts in the field. Cite the information ans supply links to journals that could be accessed. Many of the articles I accessed needed university clearance, so I summarized the pertinent information and provided the journal, authors and articles name. I then sent from my universities email a letter to Dr. Jacobson at the university of Florida to find out the latest research on IBD as well good journal studies.

Still some stuck to their beliefs, I can only guess they did not want to take the time to educate themselves, or were only looking for others to support their misconstrued views.

The outcome: The thread calmed down, those who wanted to get up to date peer reviewed journal articles from those in the profession could get reliable information. Those who wanted to just get others to agree with them filtered out. This occurred either because they were not qualified to dispute the sources supplied, or they were able to learn and get the best up to date information on the topic.

I think this area could be utilized as a great source of knowledge and education. If you are making a statement that could affect the welfare of other's animals, is it not owed to the readers a researched and supported source so they know the information given is correct?

I hope I have not offended or unnecessarily brought up a sore topic. I have learned a lot from RCReptiles and would like to see an area of discussion develop where all can learn and grow through valid research others take the time to do.

I appreciate this site and hope that at some point this area can be used as it was intended. For educational debate and learning.

Thanks for the site and the information you supply for the welfare of herps.

Paul