RCReptiles.com

[NickMyers03]

Colburn?

[Buck_99]

How about if we all take one of these?



Seriously, what's the record for longest thread on this forum?

[jb.t3ch]

[junkopardner]

Well, I'm pretty chill.

And to me, this is not so much an argument as it is trying to present factual data on communally housing Ball Pythons; what to do, what not to do, and how to eliminate risk though doing it properly.

There will always be people doing this (whatever reason is insignificant; people do what they're going to do). I agree with Ron that the first logical conclusion would be money. After that, it could be a variety of things.

But I feel it's important for the information to be out there, and in detail, should someone choose to do it, whether you agree or disagree.

The case that started this topic was different entirely. It involved someone who had acquired two BP's that had been successfully communally housed for 4 years already.

But it has become very obvious throughout this topic/debate that there are a lot of differing opinions on this issue and the risks involved.

With that being said, I intended to diligently continue to research this with the help of top professionals and facilities that practice this successfully and present the most comprehensive information on this practice. So that if someone should choose to do it, they know how to do it right and what procedures to follow to do it successfully and without risk.

This whole topic/debate has been a little bit like someone asking if they should have sex with someone they were "unsure about", and the senior members all weighing in with an emphatic "no". Whereas I was suggesting how to still do it safely with the proper "protection".

I guess the reason that I know that most people are going to do what they want to do anyway is because #1, it's true for the most part, #2, I'm the same way (I'm transporting my snake), and #3, knowing that this is for the most part true, then why not have a comprehensive overview of this practice to assure that when it's done, it's done correctly?

With all of the data I collect, I also intended to conduct interviews, etc. When all of the information is collected, I intend to write an article on this with references, citations, etc, that I hope will be the article to read regarding this subject. Because this will be so comprehensive, this may take a while, but that's alright with me.

I will be speaking mainly with "experts" (meaning those with vast experience on this AND PhD's) but if anyone wants to have any documented cases reported on this practice (positive or negative) included in the article that don't have PhD's or are not "credentialed" experts, please feel free to submit them and I will include them int he article (but they have to be "documented" cases with sources).

I will over the next few weeks simply "report" information on this subject as I get it, and you're all free to follow it, comment on it, etc

Or not.

There will be only data and facts which I will post in this thread.

Thanks to all-

Jonathan

[jb.t3ch]

[junkopardner]

JB-

I feel (and intend to prove) that should one decide to communally house BP's, that by simply following the basic guidelines on doing this that any "risks" can be eliminated. To suggest that doing this "adds" to the risk runs contrary to a lot of expert opinions from those who don't do this and those who do this successfully.

I also fully intend to include any/all dissent in my article, if there should be any. As of yet, I have found no dissent on doing this if the basic guidelines are followed, and followed consistently.

As for my analogy on this discussion/debate, I will explain it:
A poster asked a question they were "unsure about" (keeping them together or separating them), and was emphatically told not to keep them together under any circumstances. I told them how to do it, and how to do it successfully without risk. (and would have gone into further detail if I wouldn't have been attacked). So if you don't understand the analogy, then you just don't understand analogies and that's ok. For people that don't, I'll just speak plainly and literally.

As for my snake "dying an early death", that seems to be awfully presumptuous on your part. You know nothing about my snake or his condition. Since I got him, he's never stayed in the same place for very long at all. I transported him 4 hours 2 days ago, put him in a plastic storage bin, and fed him a full sized gray mouse (for the first time; this was bigger and a different color than the fuzzies he's had). He hit it immediately, and after about an hour I put him back in his enclosure. He looks good, shows no signs of stress (defensive posture, etc) and has a clean bill of health from the vet. If anything should change, you'll be the first to know.

As for breeders "knowing more" about communally housing BP's (and the "risks") than experts, that's simply untrue. I spoke with 2 breeders I obtained from the classifieds in Reptile Magazine about this, and they agreed that the problem with communally housing BP's is that most large breeders (with hundreds of snakes) wouldn't have the time to separate each one for feeding. Which, if you understand the guidelines for doing this without risk, is essential. So if a breeder were to talk about this risk, it's more than likely they had a bad experience with it because they kept them together when feeding. Again, feeding them separately is essential to eliminating risk. (I have been talking to large breeders as well, and currently have a call in to a breeder with zoology degree and over 1000 BP's that has a published book.) So professional breeders will be a part of this article as well.

And if it seems that I sometimes "argue" the answers to my questions, I apologize for that. Again, it's not "personal". I'm just trying to get as much information about the advice as I can, and also sometimes to "feel out" how knowledgeable the person is giving the advice. But questioning the answers occasionally is not meant to come off as argumentative or as an attack on the adviser or advice itself.

Thanks-

J

[NickMyers03]

Junk, we have asked many times before.. PLEASE LIST THE PEOPLE YOU HAVE TALKED TO... i will not ask this again. saying you talked to 2 breeder means nothing, get written responces from them or your debate is only hearsay.

as i said i would post all responces no matter what they said. this is a letter from Dave Barker, Noted herpetoligist.

Well, there really isn't any one answer, because either way can work out
just fine. We have a cage for each ball python that is the home of that ball
python. Some ball pythons live alone in their cages for the entire year.
Others may be in with another animal on and off for most of the year. We do
a have few animals, usually big adults, that live together almost all of the
time.

We do not keep young fast-growing ball pythons together, because they are
the most likely to have a feeding accident and end up constricting each
other. We also never keep males together. But once balls grow up and slow
down, we don't see a problem in keeping a small group together. When we feed
them, we put each back in its own cage for a day. But we think that they
probably enjoy each other's company once in a while.

Dave Barker

[deborahbroadus]

[PyMama]

[Buck_99]

[PyMama]

LOL.......so ya'll who are going for your PhDs...go get and back it up REAL good!....dont ya get that piece of paper...

[junkopardner]

Thanks Nick.

I will list all my sources soon. I did find what your herpetologist said interesting in that it sounds pretty much like everything I've heard and stated in a previous post:

Ball Pythons are not snake eaters, and there are no recorded cases of true "cannibalism" among BP's (as opposed to say, King Snakes).

It was determined that the picture suggesting cannibalism tells a very rare (and sad) story of a caregiver that was feeding two snakes in one enclosure, at the same time. And even this is a rare result when feeding two at the same time in the same enclosure (fighting is much more common, they said). And it's not cannibalism. It's more akin to sharks in a feeding frenzy.

This risk was only acknowledged if they weren't separated during feeding.

If they were separated during feeding, and put back after feeding, the consensus thus far has been that there is "zero" risk of this occurrence.

The only caveat being that it is a possibility for two "males" sharing an enclosure during breeding season (when they're more hormonally aggressive) to fight occasionally. Not "to the death" or "cannibalism", but nonetheless because of the possibility of this behavior it's recommended to be careful when housing two "males" together, especially during breeding season.

With that out of the way, the consensus on male/female, female/female communal living is that there is no risk factor at all. Also, in reference to differences in size, the consensus was that it's a good rule of thumb to, if your going to house any two animals together, keep them roughly the same size because of occasional "dominance" issues.


And I think that the part where he speaks about young BP's needs to be clarified.




We do not keep young fast-growing ball pythons together, because they are
the most likely to have a feeding accident and end up constricting each
other.

Feeding Accident? By "accident", he means feeding them in the same enclosure, correct?

Thanks for the post, and I will get you all the contacts. As I said, I'm currently writing an article about this.

PyMama-

I understand what you're saying RE: PhD's, and that's why I stated "vast experience on this AND PhD's". But let's be careful not to discredit those with PhD's, because as an educator yourself, you're fully aware of the amount of time, money, and dedication that goes into getting one. Well, those things and absorbing a boatload of knowledge.

J


J

[Buck_99]

J, you've mentioned an "article" you're working on, which is an interesting choice of word. Will you publish this here, elsewhere, or both?

[PyMama]

[junkopardner]

Buck -

I don't know about the future of the article, but by the time I'm done with it, I would like for it to be the "definitive" article on this subject because to my knowledge there isn't one. I wouldn't be opposed to it being put up anywhere on the net, but I'd like to submit it to a magazine. Does anyone subscribe to/read any reptile magazines?

I just started collecting so much information on this subject I figured I might as well do something with all of it.

PyMama-

I hear you loud and clear, and I think Einstein said it best:

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits".


J