RCReptiles.com

[junkopardner]

Everything I've read basically stated that if your housing two BP's together for the first time, make sure to quarantine them for the recommended period and then you're good to go, provided that the enclosure is large enough for both and they have enough hides etc to keep to themselves should they desire.

The only real problems I've read about or heard people talk about is if

A)they're both male
B)One is larger than the other
C)They start having feeding problems

The only real recommendations being that should you choose to house two together, make sure to feed them separately and in separate containers. Outside of that, I've not heard anything negative about keeping two together.

If they've been together for 4 years (and in those horrible conditions), and they have a lot of seperation anxiety, I wouldn't know why you couldn't just keep them together unless you just want them seperated.

This is from Ron's site, in the Q and A Troubleshooting Guide:
http://www.rcreptiles.com/articles/troubleshooting-guide-to-ball-pythons.html

Q: Is it Ok to keep more than one snake in a cage?
A: Yes and No. I don't advise keeping different types/species and/or sizes of snakes in one cage. After a 2-3 month quarantine, two or more Ball Pythons of similar size can be house together in a big cage. If they happen to stop feeding, I would suggest separating them to individual cages, and you'll want to separate them at feeding time. (Husbandry)

And this seems to be in keeping with everything else I've read. Obviously there is a size difference (about 2 ft), but if they've been together 4 years then I'd say that's obviously not an issue.

There are Pros and Cons to everything in life, and I would say that this is just a personal decision to make after weighing those pros and cons in this situation.

But people obviously do house more than one BP together, and do it successfully.

And just like when you're housing one, keep an eye on them and they'll tell you what's good for them and what's not. If you decide to keep them together and problems start to pop up, you might want to reconsider.

Anyway, that's just my two cents on everything I've read and digested on this subject.

Good luck-

Jonathan

[a_green]

Well... although I will freely state I am nothing close to an expert, I remain skeptical. After all, we cannot project human emotions onto snakes. Separation anxiety? I have a hard time with that one. They are solitary by nature and it is often difficult to interpret their behaviour... particularly now during breeding season when they might be acting bizarrely either way.

Anyway, at the end of the day, if you're determined to have a male and a female constantly together... I hope you're equipped to be a breeder!

[deborahbroadus]

Green, said it most clearly, it is true that some people do tend to emote or project human emotions onto their reptiles. I would caution against that, but it's human nature to want things to be like us or at least to like us a little bit.

There are forums devoted to reptiles that have lots of people who are swearing that their snakes love them (there's even a Poll asking "Does your snake love you?" and the range of responses isn't really surprising. What one needs to do is research a bit and find out more about those that do believe that their snake loves them...they tend to be those with one or two snakes and not a lot of previous experience. They are usually the most surprised later when their snake bites them, or does something that they swear it would never do.

[a_green]

junko, have you seen this link? http://www.rcreptiles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1343

Those are pictures of two bps of apparently the same size who were housed together, and look what happened.

I'm not saying this is *going* to happen, but if it *can* happen, why would we not want to do everything possible to guard against it?

I'm all for having a logical debate, but let's be careful about what logic we're using. Human logic walks into a pet store and says, "Look, those snakes are all piled up in a corner of the tank together like kittens--they must be cuddling!" Snake logic says, "They are struggling for dominance and should be separated in order to be healthy."

Here is my attempt to lay this out clearly in the individual case that this thread was started for. Human logic: "They are looking for each other when I separate them, they must miss each other and I should keep them together." Snake logic: They have just been put in new homes, are probably stressed out because everything is different. After a while of living separately in new homes, their stress will dissipate and they may forget they ever had a tank-mate. (I don't know if this is true, but it makes more snake-sense to me than separation anxiety.)


The other danger I'm seeing here in this thread AND many others, besides using too much human logic, is people saying "This is not a hard-and-fast rule, and I haven't seen any ill effects, so there must not be anything wrong with what I'm doing." There are many rules when it comes to housing ball pythons, and none of them are always followed. For example: temperature gradients. Pretty much all of us here know the importance of that, but there are people who don't bother--and sometimes the snake is perfectly healthy.

This does NOT mean it's okay. Similarly, there are people who don't wash their hands after handling snakes and, of course, do not get salmonella. There are people who happily kiss their snakes. It only takes ONE illness to change someone's mind (AND to convince the rest of the world that snakes are a dangerous pet....).

What I am trying to say here is, the absence of disasters is not an argument against the importance of erring on the side of caution. I am a "play it safe" kind of a person--I apply that to a large degree in my own life, but I especially apply it in the case of pets who are dependent upon me to make informed decisions for them.

[NickMyers03]

Great post A_Green

junkopardner, can i ask where exactly you are getting the Info that states that you can house them together? Ron does state that in his blog but if you notice he does say they should be housed seperately. most will say this so they do not cause an arguement among the masses. will you find a breeder like him that keeps them together? NO because he knows how they should be cared for.

most books you find in pet stores are not by people who really deal with Ball pythons and just Ball pythons..i suggest going onto Rons main page and ordering one of the books by the barkers or Kevin.

[deborahbroadus]

[Buck_99]

[jb.t3ch]

[junkopardner]

To Mr. Green and Nick:

I don't care one way or the other on this specific subject (I'm happy with my 1 snake). I was just weighing in with everything I've read and heard from other people regarding the subject, including Ron's Q and A.

Also, there are people that have talked about this subject and there were some that were doing it and had been doing it with success.

Now, as with all the things, your mileage my vary. There are lots of variables, I'm sure. But cannibalism? I would have to believe that if 2 BP's were roughly the same size then this would be extremely rare. Add to that these two specific snakes have been living on top of each other for 4 years, and now you're past extremely rare.

I could see the health point, as far as trying to identify who's crap was who's etc. but it would seem to me that if you cared for your snakes regularly that you would know who's sick and who wasn't
(or both). At that point, I assume you could separate them temporarily until you found the information you needed. But if they were quarantined properly to begin with, I think you would certainly reduce the chances of these health problems (which wouldn't be an issue with these two snakes anyway).

As for my statement about separation anxiety, I may have worded that wrong. What I meant is that every living thing is "conditionable", to certain degrees. When you change the conditions (even if the conditions are more favorable), there is stress and anxiety. So I wasn't suggesting that they were Bonnie and Clyde or Romeo and Juliet down in that tank. I was suggesting that they were part of one another's environment for years and had become conditioned as such.

I think it's agreed that snakes experience "stress". And "stress" is synonymous with anxiety. "Separation" from their living conditions for years and years will cause stress and anxiety.

Stress causes health problems in reptiles, so my theory was that since they had lived in deplorable conditions for years together and got a clean bill of health, why "fix" it if it isn't broken. They have irrefutable evidence on their side that, at least in their case, it worked.

With all that being said, in general I don't even know why someone would want more than one snake in an enclosure. Unless they just didn't want to maintain two enclosures for different reasons. But this case was different because they'd been living together for years in the same enclosure.

The information I posted from Ron's site, well, I listed the link. If this information is incorrect, maybe it should be removed. But I don't think it is incorrect because I've heard basically the same thing from many other sources.

Also, although BP's ARE solitary creatures, that doesn't mean there aren't anomalies or specific cases like this that would suggest conditioning. There are anomalies all through the animal kingdom, even with extremely wild animals. Every animal, like every living thing, is different. Every situations is different.

In closing, I've never personally been a "play it safe" kinda guy, although I've leaned more that way where I was responsible for various pets I've had. But I believe in adaptation and resilience as it has related to science and biology for millions of years. It just conditioning. I've always pushed my limits in every way conceivable.

On a funny side note, I've even eaten a fumbled Reese cup off the floor of a rancid truck stop bathroom floor.

My friend who was with me is a microbiologist, and he just laughed and laughed. I said, "Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger, right?"

"Nietzsche!", he said. "Yes. Nietzsche went insane and maybe I'll die, but I'll die an iconoclast"

I guess the reason I tell that story is because it seems that so many responsible pet owners tiptoe on eggshells around their pets in general. I'm not saying to not take the best care of them possible, but they also aren't the delicate little flowers I feel they're sometimes presented as. They're highly adaptable, and through more years than you can count to in a day they've made it through just about everything. You're not still around after all that time if you're not tough, and adaptable to your conditions.

Just because humanity has turned into a bunch of worried &#^#%(Member has recieved warning) that clean their ears out with anti-bacterial Q-Tips and take antibiotics whenever they get the sniffles doesn't mean that a reptile that has survived millions of years through everything imaginable is subject to that neurosis. Talk about reading human emotion and logic into a snake.....

I understand the "play it safe" mentality when it comes to living things that are in your care, but I also think it's important to give those living things a little more credit.

Especially when those living things have been scratching and survivin' like the Walker family in Good Times for millions of years......

J

PS- I've left an inherent contradiction in my post on this subject. I'm hoping someone can spot it so I can explain one of my real points.

[deborahbroadus]

Junk,

Have you posted a picture of your snake and set up? Have I missed it somewhere?

Someone will be along shortly to play.

[NickMyers03]

[deborahbroadus]

Junk,

You remind me of a member that we had some time ago. Your posts are very entertaining and give insight into your philosophy. Thank you for sharing. We value differences of opinions on this forum. The overriding concern that we all have in common is the safety of the snakes. That said, none of the older members would ever suggest that something be done that they knew carried risks, however small that risk might be.

That said, I am surprised that someone that has just experienced a world shaking event would encourage (you seem to be) someone else to take risks. You state that you would not do it, but you seem to be encouraging other members to do what it not a normally accepted herp keeping method. By trying to act as Devils Advocate you aren't actually doing that, your posts read as an encouragement and not as a "well, what if?" post. That's the way I am reading the post, but if I am reading it wrong, I apologize.

[deborahbroadus]

[junkopardner]

here are so many things i want to say to this.... most are not allowed on this forum.>>>>>>>

then PM me with them.


#1. the main out line for this "story" is to state that through evolution snakes are hardy... is this correct? with all that you said that seems to be the main point. Well i hate to break the news to you but snakes are not from this part of the world, sure you adapt but it takes MILLIONS of years for a creature to adapt to a diffrent climate.>>>>>>>>>>

That was ONE of my points. That snakes are "conditionable" to a certain degree, like ANY living thing. If this WEREN'T the case, then explain handling them often to get them "used to it", or feeding them frozen because it is believed that this makes them less aggressive as it doesn't stimulate the aggressive/hunting response, or feeding them in a separate container so they don't associate their enclosure with food....I could go on, but all these examples are examples of adaptation through CONDITIONING. You can't argue that. Well, I guess you can but then again you argue that the world is really flat.

As for the climate point, you are posing a straw man argument here. I never said throw them out n the snow and they'll adapt, did I? So where are you getting that from?


#2. when your snakes are " laying on eachother" they are NOT showing emotion they are combating for the heat spot.>>>>>>>>>>>

Where did I say that snakes laying on top of each other were showing emotion? I never said that at any point. In fact, all I said that was that they were part of each other's environment for years. Now, if that's a fact, am I making it up? And are you even reading these posts, and if so, who they're from?

#3. for having one snake and not alot of Know how about them you seem to preach alot. common sence doesnt work in this field with new herpers. you are on a forum that doesnt like to give out false info and yet you are spewing it to kids and adults that may be getting their first snake and may think about a second.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I'm not preaching ANYTHING, and I'm not stating anything that hasn't been stated by several BP owner's and professionals, including the information on this very site's Q and A. Are you saying that Ron, the owner of this site, is giving out false information about housing two BP's together?


#4. i love the fact that you state how you eat candy off the ground. i do believe in the 5 second rule ONLY if it is on my clean kitchen floor OR in my own house where i know it is sanitary. now off the floor of a rancid truck stop bathroom floor? if your kids were tought these practices there may be a reason they now have ecoli. im sorry that your son has this but from just reading your post its now making sence.>>>>>>>>>>>

First, you better drop the "son" thing immediately.
Second, he's my girlfriend and her ex-husbands son, and his condition is a result of unsanitary conditions at her ex mother-in-law's house, which is part of the reason she's trying to get joint custody. I can't even believe you have the gall to bring this up. I would be very careful here.
Third, children, the sick and the elderly have very weakened immune systems, so what applies to resistance, conditioning and adaptation in healthy adults does not remotely apply to children, the sick and the elderly. Kinda like intelligent, articulate and tactful discourse doesn't remotely apply to you in this post.


#5. you state that snakes are conditionable... show me one snake that if it had the chance would not slither away. there is a reason they are called caged animals.>>>>>>>>>>>>>

"Slither away" from WHAT? What are you even talking about?


#6. i do believe ther is more of a DE-stressing when seperating them not stressing them out more... if these two snakes were moved from one house to another there would be more stress there with new smells, so if it was done then there would be no extra stress factor.>>>>>>>>>>>>

"You" believe. "You" being the key word here. You expressed your beliefs, and I pointed out a long history of these two snakes sharing the same unsanitary enclosure with no problems. No imagine that enclosure was perfectly sanitary....yeah, I can see that you have a point. They may be so "conditioned" by their unsanitary conditions that they might get really ill or eat each other in a really clean one.

Now, that is obviously sarcasm. but you see my point. I have the past 4 years of facts, and you have what "you" believe about stress levels in separating 2 snakes that have been a large part of their single enclosure for the last 4 years.

Now I'm not saying you're right or wrong, but there's simply no way for you to know. If they "adapt" and become "conditioned" to being alone for the first time in separate enclosure, then I'm right. If they do it without getting sick, we're both right. But even IF they don't get stressed to the point of illness, that still doesn't prove that they were no more stressed being separated than they would have been just being in a new environment. If you real his post, he didn't say they got stressed when he got them to his home, with new smells etc. He said they got stressed when he tried to SEPARATE them.


#7 how can you think they are solitary creatures BUT think that its fine to have 2 together? ther are no anomalies with them, they dont all of a sudden want to have a family and stay home and take care of the kids.>>>>>>>>>>

Because many people in other forums, herp newgroups, vets etc. have said the same things about housing two BP's together that Ron has said in his Q and A ON this very site!! Are you even listening? And to say that there are no anomalies in BP's is absolutely ignorant. There are anomalies in every species of animal, human, tree, plant and on and on and on.....


( you are now Warned for the Curse word used in the responce)>>>>>

Well, I wasn't really aware that the word I used was a curse word. So, thanks Mom.

Now I know.....

J

[a_green]

Can we all calm down here please?

Junko, you are obviously not making the effort to try to understand what people are saying to you, so don't worry about any of us trying to understand the point of all you've just written, which is NOT helping anyone here other than yourself. I think this point has been stressed enough, but because you have not yet acknowledged it, I will underline it once more: We are here to help novice bp owners. Your arguments are not doing so.

This thread was started to help Feral. I don't know if everyone's overlooked his last post, but he has now successfully separated the snakes, in accordance with the advice of *most* of us here, and things seem to be going well.

The end.