| |
| Author |
Message |
deborahbroadus
Moderator
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 6671
Location: Baltimore, MD
|
 Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject: |
 |
| ryancbj22 wrote: | Because of it being a rack system they hold humidity a lot more than say an aquarium with a screen top or lid. Plus the way I built my rack there is only a few thousands of an inch between the top of the tub and the shelf to prevent any escapes  so this allows for the humidity to build up better. I control it by drilling holes in the sides the more holes the less humidity.
I have a 4ft long tank that is 2ft high and it holds humidity at 65% but thats with a diy humidifier....
[img] [/img] |
Where did you get that awesome cage and what size is it?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
|
cupcake
Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Posts: 27
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:48 pm Post subject: |
|
| deborahbroadus wrote: | | ryancbj22 wrote: | Because of it being a rack system they hold humidity a lot more than say an aquarium with a screen top or lid. Plus the way I built my rack there is only a few thousands of an inch between the top of the tub and the shelf to prevent any escapes so this allows for the humidity to build up better. I control it by drilling holes in the sides the more holes the less humidity.
I have a 4ft long tank that is 2ft high and it holds humidity at 65% but thats with a diy humidifier....
[img][/img] |
Where did you get that awesome cage and what size is it? |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
deborahbroadus
Moderator
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 6671
Location: Baltimore, MD
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject: |
|
| cupcake wrote: | | deborahbroadus wrote: | | ryancbj22 wrote: | Because of it being a rack system they hold humidity a lot more than say an aquarium with a screen top or lid. Plus the way I built my rack there is only a few thousands of an inch between the top of the tub and the shelf to prevent any escapes so this allows for the humidity to build up better. I control it by drilling holes in the sides the more holes the less humidity.
I have a 4ft long tank that is 2ft high and it holds humidity at 65% but thats with a diy humidifier....
[img][/img] |
Where did you get that awesome cage and what size is it? |
|
Thanks Cupcake, but I wanted the size stated from the site that he brought it from..they sometimes have a different way of stating sizes that I have never understood (2x4x12). I really wanted it typed out the way it is on the site.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cupcake
Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Posts: 27
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:11 am Post subject: |
|
Oh right I see, sorry. 
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
deborahbroadus
Moderator
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 6671
Location: Baltimore, MD
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:50 am Post subject: |
|
| cupcake wrote: | | Oh right I see, sorry. |
No problem, I know you were just being helpful, and I appreciate it.  shhhhh sometimes I actually do miss information that is posted and I DO appreciate it being brought to my attention.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cupcake
Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Posts: 27
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:18 am Post subject: Sorry to keep on about it, but............. |
|
I just found this information from an ebook which I downloaded from some site ages ago, I have read about this humidity thing in regards to RI, I am not making it up honestly:
"If cage temperatures fluctuate rapidly and widely, your snake may develop respiratory illness. This is especially so if cage humidity is high or the substrate is wet and cold. Since many snakes have only a single functional lung, respiratory distress of any manner can be a very serious even fatal – malady. Excessive sneezing, wheezing, rasping or bubbling all indicate the need to correct your husbandry, elevate cage temperatures to 90 to 95 F, and to seek the help of a reptile qualified veterinarian."
I would like to know either way as I am scared of spraying my bp's viv too much and only do it when in shed.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
deborahbroadus
Moderator
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 6671
Location: Baltimore, MD
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:46 am Post subject: Re: Sorry to keep on about it, but............. |
|
| cupcake wrote: | I just found this information from an ebook which I downloaded from some site ages ago, I have read about this humidity thing in regards to RI, I am not making it up honestly:
"If cage temperatures fluctuate rapidly and widely, your snake may develop respiratory illness. This is especially so if cage humidity is high or the substrate is wet and cold. Since many snakes have only a single functional lung, respiratory distress of any manner can be a very serious even fatal – malady. Excessive sneezing, wheezing, rasping or bubbling all indicate the need to correct your husbandry, elevate cage temperatures to 90 to 95 F, and to seek the help of a reptile qualified veterinarian."
I would like to know either way as I am scared of spraying my bp's viv too much and only do it when in shed. |
There is all kinds of contradictory information on the web and in books. Harald pointed out to Droptine that too dry and environment is also bad. There should be a way to find a happy medium.
I tried researching and asking questions of those that have kept BPs longest, but no concrete answer. No one really knows how NOT to prevent it apparently except to have moderate humditiy (what's moderate) but please remember that your tank is not a constant humidity but it fluctuates and some spots may have more or less.
Another thing we are cautioned to watch for is "extreme" flunctuations in the environment as this can cause stress which in turn lowers the BPs ability to resist bacteria and viruses.
One thing we do know absolutely is that R.I is caused by a virus. This being the case, it must have a favorable environment in which to thrive. With this in mind, I clean my racks once a week with Chlorhexidine and spot clean on demand.
| Quote: | | Chlorhexidine is classified as a disinfectant or cleanser. It is used both to treat environmental surfaces, and in less concentrated forms, to treat the skin, ears and oral cavity. It is effective against bacteria, fungus, yeast and viruses. |
I am sorry I wasn't able to get more concrete information. Most people are just saying the same thing that's in the books (with a few smart remarks scattered here and there). 
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jb.t3ch
Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 572
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: Sorry to keep on about it, but............. |
|
| cupcake wrote: | I just found this information from an ebook which I downloaded from some site ages ago, I have read about this humidity thing in regards to RI, I am not making it up honestly:
"If cage temperatures fluctuate rapidly and widely, your snake may develop respiratory illness. This is especially so if cage humidity is high or the substrate is wet and cold. Since many snakes have only a single functional lung, respiratory distress of any manner can be a very serious even fatal – malady. Excessive sneezing, wheezing, rasping or bubbling all indicate the need to correct your husbandry, elevate cage temperatures to 90 to 95 F, and to seek the help of a reptile qualified veterinarian."
I would like to know either way as I am scared of spraying my bp's viv too much and only do it when in shed. |
this is how i read this statement, "if cage temps bounce around a lot(specially if they drop lower than recommended) then your snake could develop an RI or this is especially so if cage humidity is high and or the substrate is cold and wet". so sounds like not just humidity causing RI, which i think most members would agree. theres an imbalance somewhere whether its high humidity and dirty conditions or high humidity with colder than normal temps. just my 2 cents.
i had a 40 gal breeder tank that the humidity would stay around 35% and i could see my bp drying out. that being said we know low humidity is bad but i havnt seen anything yet on high humidity. i now house my bp in a tub and the levels stay around 65% which to me seems to be perfect. this is just my experience with humidity.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
deborahbroadus
Moderator
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 6671
Location: Baltimore, MD
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: Sorry to keep on about it, but............. |
|
| jb.t3ch wrote: | | cupcake wrote: | I just found this information from an ebook which I downloaded from some site ages ago, I have read about this humidity thing in regards to RI, I am not making it up honestly:
"If cage temperatures fluctuate rapidly and widely, your snake may develop respiratory illness. This is especially so if cage humidity is high or the substrate is wet and cold. Since many snakes have only a single functional lung, respiratory distress of any manner can be a very serious even fatal – malady. Excessive sneezing, wheezing, rasping or bubbling all indicate the need to correct your husbandry, elevate cage temperatures to 90 to 95 F, and to seek the help of a reptile qualified veterinarian."
I would like to know either way as I am scared of spraying my bp's viv too much and only do it when in shed. |
this is how i read this statement, "if cage temps bounce around a lot(specially if they drop lower than recommended) then your snake could develop an RI or this is especially so if cage humidity is high and or the substrate is cold and wet". so sounds like not just humidity causing RI, which i think most members would agree. theres an imbalance somewhere whether its high humidity and dirty conditions or high humidity with colder than normal temps. just my 2 cents.
i had a 40 gal breeder tank that the humidity would stay around 35% and i could see my bp drying out. that being said we know low humidity is bad but i havnt seen anything yet on high humidity. i now house my bp in a tub and the levels stay around 65% which to me seems to be perfect. this is just my experience with humidity. |
I agree, some keep the humdity low enough that the eyes start drying out and then give a bath. Obviously humidity is needed and it has to be high enough for this not to happen. It also has to be high enough or a humid hide provided so that constant baths and assists in shedding are unnecessary.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cupcake
Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Posts: 27
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:25 pm Post subject: |
|
I find humidity confusing, especially when there are so many caresheets on the net which contradict each other. I am thinking of using the diy humidifyer method and see how I get on with that but I still would only keep it between 50-60%, then 75% when in shed.
Sorry tigasnake, I feel like your thread has been hijacked. I think that you will have to make your own mind up on humidity levels, as it seems there is a range of opinions on the matter.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
deborahbroadus
Moderator
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 6671
Location: Baltimore, MD
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject: |
|
| cupcake wrote: | I find humidity confusing, especially when there are so many caresheets on the net which contradict each other. I am thinking of using the diy humidifyer method and see how I get on with that but I still would only keep it between 50-60%, then 75% when in shed.
Sorry tigasnake, I feel like your thread has been hijacked. I think that you will have to make your own mind up on humidity levels, as it seems there is a range of opinions on the matter. |
I do not think that there is actually "a wide range of opinions."
It is accepted that BPs need humidity..the issue is "how much is too much." There has been NO proven cases of BPs falling ill of high humidity alone it is usually a combination of factors. A virus can't grown in a clean environment that is kept clean on a regular basis (if I am wrong correct me).
Common sense would suggest that if the bp is not shedding correctly even with the humid hide and if his eyes are dented that means there is not enough humidity.
Therefore, I do not suggest he make up his own mind, but he watch his snake and be guided by the symptoms that will become evident.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cupcake
Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Posts: 27
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:06 am Post subject: |
|
Upon reading this thread it seems there is a range between 40 - 85% (= 45% range) which members are keeping their bp's at.
I simply meant that he make his own mind up on which advised level of humidity he uses, of course he has other options other than this forum (ie care sheets and books) and it is up to him to research the matter and then form his own opinion.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hhmoore
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 460
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:32 pm Post subject: |
|
I can't bring myself to read this whole thread, but there are a couple of points that bear clarification (besides, somebody mentioned my name).
I think it is pretty well accepted that too dry is no good - if there is a need to discuss WHY, I can delve into it...otherwise, I'm moving on.
One can, and will, find all sorts of recommendations & information when searching the web. No offense meant to anybody here, but heed said advice at your own risk. ANYBODY (and his brother) can type up a care sheet, make recommendations, give advice, and tell you that you are doing wrong. In many cases, people are simply regurgitating information that they read someplace, or were told...other times it is based upon limited experience. I think that in most cases, it is well intentioned - that the people just want to help other budding hobbyists - and I don't take issues with it, unless the information is false or could harm the animal. People are quick to "diagnose" problems, and offer solutions, based on a half-assed description, and without knowing vital information that could provide the real key to the solution.
Back on track - this is about humidity (I think...or at least the posts I saw were)
The whole point of the above paragraph was that much of what you find on the web is based upon the writer's experience (and some obviously have more experience than others, lol). 50-60% RH is a good baseline to target. Some people shoot for higher, most actually achieve lower.
A constant RH of 70% is not necessarily detrimental to a BP...but some of the techniques used to attain it are. One of the more common means of increasing humidity is a reduction of airflow. People cover the tops of aquariums or decrease the amount ventilation in cages/tubs to reduce the drying effect of heat sources...the problem comes when the ventilation is reduced too much. Stagnant air is not healthy air. Further, when a snake excretes urea in a poorly ventilated enclosure, the resultant odor quickly increases to the point where it can cause problems (remember, that urination is the body's way of getting rid of ammonia, so it is more than just a smell - it has a caustic effect on the airways and mucosa).
The other, probably more obvious to some, reason that high humidity becomes problematic in a snakes enclosure is that bacteria thrive in a warm moist environment. It is also a good medium for molds & fungi. I think that one is pretty clear cut, but it can be discussed later (if desired)
Now, I'm going to pick on Deb a little, because I know she can take it.
| Quote: | One thing we do know absolutely is that R.I is caused by a virus. This being the case, it must have a favorable environment in which to thrive. With this in mind, I clean my racks once a week with Chlorhexidine and spot clean on demand.
.........................................................................................................
There has been NO proven cases of BPs falling ill of high humidity alone it is usually a combination of factors. A virus can't grown in a clean environment that is kept clean on a regular basis (if I am wrong correct me). |
I hope we don't know absolutely that R.I is caused by a virus, because that would seriously reduce the effectiveness of treatment & the survival rates of our animals. R.I.'s can be caused by bacteria, fungi, and viruses, and the treatment is not the same. Most common antibiotics are not effective antifungals or antivirals. Also, not everything that is called an RI by hobbyists is an RI. People so loosely associate the term with the symptoms that any display of symptoms is labeled accordingly. In many cases, at least in the early stages, the symptoms are merely that - symptoms. Adjusting/correcting husbandry issues will often resolve the issue and the symptoms improve, then go away. The I (in RI) stands for infection...which implies a colonization & growth of microbes. Sometimes they have a limited life/action - like our cold - and they will go away on their own...but most require treatment with an appropriate agent. As an example, take the situation described above - where a snake urinates in a poorly ventilated enclosure. The passage of 12 hrs before it is found (certainly not unreasonable in anybody's book, I don't think) shows the snake wheezing and breathing through a slightly gaped mouth. All that is required to fix this is cleaning the enclosure. The symptoms may take another day or two to resolve (inflammation takes time to clear), but they will resolve spontaneously because there was no infection...despite the familiar symptoms.
Now, say you are away for 3-4 days...in that time, mold spores and bacteria have formed on some eliminated waste, been disrupted by normal movement, and inhaled. You come home and find the snake wheezing and gaping, and after a few days symptoms have not improved.
Anyway, I'm getting off track again.....
Chlorhexidine - its a fairly good disinfectant, when used properly; but it isn't the panacea that some people seem to think. It kills what is susceptible to it...if it has sufficient contact time, and the solution is fresh. I know I have had this discussion with Deb, but for anybody that doesn't know - "kill time" will range from 30 seconds to 5+ minutes, depending on the organism, so the ol' spray and wipe doesn't really cut it for disinfection. Also, mixed in tap water, a chlorhexidine solution is potent for 7 days...its good for about 6 weeks when mixed with distilled water.
Personally, I use chlorhexidine for the routine stuff...but for sick quarantine or terminal cleans, I use either bleach or a quaternary ammonium.
As for viruses living on a clean surface - sure they can. How long they live will depend on the virus, of course, but some can last for a long time. Keep in mind that routine cleaning will be of varying effect depending on technique. If the cleaning agent isn't lethal to the organism, you are just hoping to disrupt/dislodge it via friction and wipe it away.
Wow - talk about longwinded...sorry everybody. Next time, just tell me to shut up before I get on a roll.
*edited to correct information on chlorhexidine effective life - It was past my bedtime before & I put in the wrong info - my apologies to all.*
Last edited by hhmoore on Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
deborahbroadus
Moderator
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 6671
Location: Baltimore, MD
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:06 pm Post subject: |
|
| hhmoore wrote: | I can't bring myself to read this whole thread, but there are a couple of points that bear clarification (besides, somebody mentioned my name).
I think it is pretty well accepted that too dry is no good - if there is a need to discuss WHY, I can delve into it...otherwise, I'm moving on.
One can, and will, find all sorts of recommendations & information when searching the web. No offense meant to anybody here, but heed said advice at your own risk. ANYBODY (and his brother) can type up a care sheet, make recommendations, give advice, and tell you that you are doing wrong. In many cases, people are simply regurgitating information that they read someplace, or were told...other times it is based upon limited experience. I think that in most cases, it is well intentioned - that the people just want to help other budding hobbyists - and I don't take issues with it, unless the information is false or could harm the animal. People are quick to "diagnose" problems, and offer solutions, based on a half-assed description, and without knowing vital information that could provide the real key to the solution.
Back on track - this is about humidity (I think...or at least the posts I saw were)
The whole point of the above paragraph was that much of what you find on the web is based upon the writer's experience (and some obviously have more experience than others, lol). 50-60% RH is a good baseline to target. Some people shoot for higher, most actually achieve lower.
A constant RH of 70% is not necessarily detrimental to a BP...but some of the techniques used to attain it are. One of the more common means of increasing humidity is a reduction of airflow. People cover the tops of aquariums or decrease the amount ventilation in cages/tubs to reduce the drying effect of heat sources...the problem comes when the ventilation is reduced too much. Stagnant air is not healthy air. Further, when a snake excretes urea in a poorly ventilated enclosure, the resultant odor quickly increases to the point where it can cause problems (remember, that urination is the body's way of getting rid of ammonia, so it is more than just a smell - it has a caustic effect on the airways and mucosa).
The other, probably more obvious to some, reason that high humidity becomes problematic in a snakes enclosure is that bacteria thrive in a warm moist environment. It is also a good medium for molds & fungi. I think that one is pretty clear cut, but it can be discussed later (if desired)
Now, I'm going to pick on Deb a little, because I know she can take it.
| Quote: | One thing we do know absolutely is that R.I is caused by a virus. This being the case, it must have a favorable environment in which to thrive. With this in mind, I clean my racks once a week with Chlorhexidine and spot clean on demand.
.........................................................................................................
There has been NO proven cases of BPs falling ill of high humidity alone it is usually a combination of factors. A virus can't grown in a clean environment that is kept clean on a regular basis (if I am wrong correct me). |
I hope we don't know absolutely that R.I is caused by a virus, because that would seriously reduce the effectiveness of treatment & the survival rates of our animals. R.I.'s can be caused by bacteria, fungi, and viruses, and the treatment is not the same. Most common antibiotics are not effective antifungals or antivirals. Also, not everything that is called an RI by hobbyists is an RI. People so loosely associate the term with the symptoms that any display of symptoms is labeled accordingly. In many cases, at least in the early stages, the symptoms are merely that - symptoms. Adjusting/correcting husbandry issues will often resolve the issue and the symptoms improve, then go away. The I (in RI) stands for infection...which implies a colonization & growth of microbes. Sometimes they have a limited life/action - like our cold - and they will go away on their own...but most require treatment with an appropriate agent. As an example, take the situation described above - where a snake urinates in a poorly ventilated enclosure. The passage of 12 hrs before it is found (certainly not unreasonable in anybody's book, I don't think) shows the snake wheezing and breathing through a slightly gaped mouth. All that is required to fix this is cleaning the enclosure. The symptoms may take another day or two to resolve (inflammation takes time to clear), but they will resolve spontaneously because there was no infection...despite the familiar symptoms.
Now, say you are away for 3-4 days...in that time, mold spores and bacteria have formed on some eliminated waste, been disrupted by normal movement, and inhaled. You come home and find the snake wheezing and gaping, and after a few days symptoms have not improved.
Anyway, I'm getting off track again.....
Chlorhexidine - its a fairly good disinfectant, when used properly; but it isn't the panacea that some people seem to think. It kills what is susceptible to it...if it has sufficient contact time, and the solution is fresh. I know I have had this discussion with Deb, but for anybody that doesn't know - "kill time" will range from 30 seconds to 5+ minutes, depending on the organism, so the ol' spray and wipe doesn't really cut it for disinfection. Also, mixed in tap water, a chlorhexidine solution is potent for 24 hrs...its good for a week when mixed with distilled water.
Personally, I use chlorhexidine for the routine stuff...but for sick quarantine or terminal cleans, I use either bleach or a quaternary ammonium.
As for viruses living on a clean surface - sure they can. How long they live will depend on the virus, of course, but some can last for a long time. Keep in mind that routine cleaning will be of varying effect depending on technique. If the cleaning agent isn't lethal to the organism, you are just hoping to disrupt/dislodge it via friction and wipe it away.
Wow - talk about longwinded...sorry everybody. Next time, just tell me to shut up before I get on a roll. |
For those of you that are new, Harald does know what he's talking about. I hope he posts MORE often! 
You are not picking on me, you are trying to give me a better education than I can get though the care sheets and asking others on forums, so Thanks! When I try and delve for information of this sort no one talks like this except you. It is really too bad that you don't like BPs. 
I do not think you are "long-winded" most of us want to learn and we don't want the simple pap that is spewed out on the care sheets and word of mouth, we really want to know the whys and wherefores (at least I do and I believe many of the rest do too).
Thanks much for the education. I know I keep it short and sweet when I am typing, but I have been using the time-frame that was discussed previously and I do use bleach when I have a LOT of time to clean and can afford dawdle at each tub for longer than 20 minutes. btw: what's the give on using bleach on the tubs?..it leaves a smell for quite a long time, and it takes a while for the smell to dissipate.
I have quite a few holes in the tubs for ventilation and I open them once a day....will post a pic of my set up soon and you can rip me a new one!
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ryancbj22
Moderator
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 696
Location: Columbus Ohio
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:12 pm Post subject: |
|
Deb I purchased that tank from Reptilebasics I love it it's 4ft long and 2ft tall. The only problem I have is it's a little tricky to get him out of the tank seeing as how it's so shallow but over all i'm really happy with it. I use it for a show tank you can stack them also so i'm sure they'll be more.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
Ball
Pythons for Sale
Ron's
Ball Python Blog
FAQ
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Search
Register
Log in