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Buck_99
Moderator
Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 1276
Location: Midlothian, VA
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 Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:54 pm Post subject: The Incredible Disappearing Rat Pups! |
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I've been breeding my own rats, and for the most part this has been a successful endeavor, rendering useless whole bags of rats I have in my freezer (guess I need more snakes).
Problem: In two cases now (separated by about three weeks) I've had rat fuzzies simply disappear. No bones, no blood...nothing. In both cases the rats were in tall glass aquaria with locks plus a 10 lb. weight for extra security. The rat adults can't even reach the screen top, let alone tear it, so the screens are whole and unbroken. In neither case was I able to locate any bodies when sifting through the substrate.
I keep the rats well fed and watered, and I clean their cages once per week. I'm not certain, but it may be the case I handled the babies in the days leading up to the disappearances when transferring them - with their parent(s) - to and from a temporary tub while I cleaned their cages.
Case #1: The female was alone with her nine offspring. They were less than 2 weeks old. One day the count was down from nine to two. The other seven were never found.
Case #2: One female and one male were living with her one offspring, who was less than two weeks old (yes, a very small litter, which suggests to me that she's either nearing the end of her reproductive usefulness, or I let the male have contact with her too soon, though I tried to give her a lot of time...it was her 2nd litter with the same male since I bought her). The male was always protective of the baby, staring me down during feeding and watering time and covering the baby. He also covered the baby whenever momma rat went to the other end to eat or drink. Mrs. 99 and I call these two rats our "star crossed lovers," because they show a preference for each other.
So what's going on? Any guesses?
Oh, and "LOL" in advance to anyone who suggests Mrs. Nesbit is behind these mysterious disappearances...but seriously, that wouldn't be possible.
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deborahbroadus
Moderator
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 6463
Location: Baltimore, MD
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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Scott, I had the same issue happening from time to time: they are eating them, skin bones and all. 
Some times the ratterlings die from suffocation or whatever and they are eaten..sometimes not. I reduced the number of females per male and it seems to have some effect there's more room in the tubs (I also take out the older ratterlings, because they try and be greedy with the milk. and the smaller ones can starve if not caught in time. Also..the rat foods that are "blocks" are usually a bit big to get easily though the small grates and the "lazy" rats don't work very hard when they are hungry..they just grab up a "snack."
Another solution of mine was to interperse Cat food with the Mazuri which comes in blocks. The cat food is smaller and they get full and are less likely to want a snack (I am teasing, but that's the take I have on the situation)
Then again, it could be that the female smothered the rats by accident and then swallowed the evidence....
I am looking forward to working with these ASFs to see if there is going to be a marked difference. 
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Deedle
Joined: 19 May 2007
Posts: 280
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:16 am Post subject: |
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Since my post have not been removed.
I wish to have no part of this forum.
Last edited by Deedle on Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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deborahbroadus
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Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 6463
Location: Baltimore, MD
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Deedle wrote: | Sounds like they are eating them.
Generally if they eat offspring, its due to a lack of protien, I generally supplemented my rat food with puppy food that has a lot of protien, once I did this I rarely ran into this problem. |
I understand what you are saying, I wish it were such a simple fix of giving more protein, because I was originally feeding Mazuri rat blocks, and I was still having the same problem.
When I ran out of Mazuri (being lazy-the supplier is over an hour away) I used cat food..still they were eating the babies (not a lot, but it happened).
Now I am using a combination and with the decreased number of rats per tub, catfood, rat blocks, and other stuff.....btw: My rats are the most spoiled rats ever..They get fruits veggies, doggie treats (chocolate chips which most will come and take from my hands) I have seen a big decrease in dead/eaten ratterlings.
That's why I didn't think it was a protein problem alone ...just one of those things...over crowding? too big litters, stress? I don't have a lock on the issue among my own rats yet. 
More information if you have any would be appreciated. 
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RonCrawford
Site Admin
Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 1917
Location: Pottsville, PA (USA)
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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Some females will cannabalize their first litter (mice do this as well). Future litters should be okay though. Males will most certainly destroy an entire litter of babies (pinks through rats that are being weaned off the mother) if the litter is not their own.
We had a male that would destroy his own offspring litter after litter so you know what his fate was, eh?
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deborahbroadus
Moderator
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 6463
Location: Baltimore, MD
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| RonCrawford wrote: | Some females will cannabalize their first litter (mice do this as well). Future litters should be okay though. Males will most certainly destroy an entire litter of babies (pinks through rats that are being weaned off the mother) if the litter is not their own.
We had a male that would destroy his own offspring litter after litter so you know what his fate was, eh? |
 How did you deduce that it was the male committing the acts?
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Deedle
Joined: 19 May 2007
Posts: 280
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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Since my post have not been removed.
I wish to have no part of this forum.
Last edited by Deedle on Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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deborahbroadus
Moderator
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 6463
Location: Baltimore, MD
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Deedle wrote: | | RonCrawford wrote: | Some females will cannabalize their first litter (mice do this as well). Future litters should be okay though. Males will most certainly destroy an entire litter of babies (pinks through rats that are being weaned off the mother) if the litter is not their own.
We had a male that would destroy his own offspring litter after litter so you know what his fate was, eh? |
oOoO I know! I know! 
And Deb, A friend of mine that has bred rats for 20+ years told me it was a lack of protein. I'd say after I had a momma that would eat their offspring, I tried the puppy food with high protein content, along with rat food, and their general scraps (veggies/fruits/bred etc)
The puppy food had a lot more protein than the rat food, once I implemented this as part of their regular diet and gave them more puppy food once they gave birth, never had any babies eaten.
And as far as I know puppy food has a lot more protein than cat or kitty food, because dogs(pups) require a lot more of it than a cat does. |
Ok, I'ma try the dog food, a breeder that's been in it longer than I recommended cat food (see where I am going with this?)
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Deedle
Joined: 19 May 2007
Posts: 280
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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Since my post have not been removed.
I wish to have no part of this forum.
Last edited by Deedle on Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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RonCrawford
Site Admin
Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 1917
Location: Pottsville, PA (USA)
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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We have a lot of rats ourselves and feed them nothing but Mazuri 6F.
Haven't had a female or male cannabalize any litters in a very long time. I've heard of adding kitten food to help with vitamins for the babies but Mazuri 6F is designed for breeders so it works for us.
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deborahbroadus
Moderator
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 6463
Location: Baltimore, MD
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| RonCrawford wrote: | We have a lot of rats ourselves and feed them nothing but Mazuri 6F.
Haven't had a female or male cannabalize any litters in a very long time. I've heard of adding kitten food to help with vitamins for the babies but Mazuri 6F is designed for breeders so it works for us. |
If you ever find time, I would be interested in seeing the size of your tubs and how many rats are normally in one tub..(simple to verify that it's not over crowding that can bring on cannibalism) but perhaps my (cement tubs are too small for 4 females, 1 male and the succeeding litters.
(I am not currently having cannibalism issues..but I am always looking for ways to improve the system)
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Murefu33
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 282
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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Buck, did you consider that your rats have been learning various disappearing magic tricks? I know it sounds absurd.. but I am quite sure that rats could rival David Blane (and are no where near as arrogant). Instead of accepting that they had babies.. they tried a new form of abortion.. magic.[/i]
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