RCReptiles.com

[pdig69]

i've done research in my own home, and perfected tests differentiating variables for perfected outcomes. Utilized methods unseen and clarified, not only to myself, but to you in an instance, why it might be ok to leave a pinky inside the snake tank for more than one day.......DUNDUnDunnnn!! NOT SAYING TO DO THIS! I AM GIVING MY OPINION, AND I AM NOT A PROFESSIONAL. I JUST DID THIS TEST, AND I'M SHARING FOR HUMOR AND OPINIONS FROM EVERYONE, INCLUDING THE PROFESSIONALS. thank you

anyways... whatcha guys think! lol

i've seen mice eat mice after not feeding for a couple days. I'll never make that mistake again, and that wasn't really my fault! my local petstore closed early that week, and didn't open early enough. i think the mice end up eating the snakes, because some of us neglect to feed the mice while they are in the snake cage! i did tests on my one bp to see how long i can leave the pinky in there.

1st day: The first ten minutes the mouse seemed, though disoriented, like it was adapting towards the opposite end of where his final fate will lay. Minutes turned into hours, and hours turned into more hours. This game of patience required more than strict focus, it was a test of determination ultimately ending in...who will survive the longest.

2nd day: Still nothing... The morning dew gently fading from my sliding glass doors by the suns approaching glimmer. Pinky hasn't seen sleep in almost 15 hours and now ready to see another day.. Little, my bp, still lays dormant in her side of the glass box right in the open, waiting, watching, exhilerated for her moment of glory! i decide to treat pinky for her bravery, courage, and her will to survive! She has enough food to last another few days....

3rd Day: The Dead of the Night, I approach uneasy, into my livingroom. Little's red light illuminates the entire room, but I can't see inside just yet. i must walk closer...and closer...wait..where.?!? ohHHH, there is pinky, now hiding directly behind Little's lair! This must be the time!!! Food for three mice...is this it??? no...Pinky is strong, draped with years of experience, she has now earned her true valor. Alert to movement beyond her senses, she has already noticed my approach and readys herself. I descend into the shadows leaving both of them...there, alone...

4th Day: how much more can i take of this! the anticipation is eating away at my conscience! i must send aid to pinky! she has proved herself a worthy warrior! She has sacrificed enough in the name of pinky's across the world! Little has been tested, and to no avail she has failed... pinky is now a survivor. She dared to not enter into the area where Little rested, equipped with food, pinky superceded my assumptions of not surviving for more than two days and/or eating my snakes skin. With food, i believe pinkys will not eat the snakes.

..Since then, Pinky has become a proud mother to be and she has been living in her Uptown rubbermaid villa with her girlfriends.
Little, still getting better from a disease i am desperately trying to take care of, has fed!! Two days after the rescue of Pinky, she finally fed on a smaller mouse. She has also drank water, shed and pooped. She pooped again last night.... on me. It is great seeing them develop into the type of Ball Pythons they should be.

[RonCrawford]

Pinky mice and rats, not a problem to leave over night unattended. If its eyes are open and it can feed on its own, problem!

[hhmoore]

Was Pinky just the name, or was it a pinky mouse? I initially thought you were talking about a pinky mouse (you started out talking about leaving a pinky in overnight, or longer)...but if you were leaving food for it (and it was consuming it?), and the snake finally fed on a smaller mouse, I really have to wonder.

[pdig69]

It was a young adult mouse, I just called it Pinky Four days, the mouse didn't do a single thing. It seemed like as long as there was food next to him, he'd stay in the corner forever. Well, atleast for the hours that I monitored him. Probably not a good idea anyways, I just did this test because she was being stubborn and not feeding.

[deborahbroadus]

AND..Junky wants to encourage people to keep BPs together.

[junkopardner]

Well, I would say that's pretty risky. I would imagine that if you did this over a large sample (say, 100 times) that you would probably get different results than what you did.

I mean, I've been transporting my snake back and forth 70 miles and between two different enclosures for a while now. And even though it's been working, I wouldn't really recommend it to someone wanting to do it just because it's worked for me and my snake so far. Now if I did it with many different Ball Pythons over a large sample and there was never a problem, I might think differently. But every snake and rodent (just like every human) is different. Add to that a zillion different variables and it's hard to present a specific case as a rule. A specific case would have to be "assumed" to be an "exception" to the rule unless proven otherwise. And the only way these types of things could be proven is over a very large sample, statistics and data recorded (as well as all the many variables) and then percentages of incidents/non-incidences calculated.

Personally, I think you can "get away" with a lot of things that are not advisable. But I think the safety and health of snakes in "inadvisable" situations require more monitoring than a lot of owners have the capacity for (not saying "you" personally, but you get my point).

J

[junkopardner]

Deb-

AND..Junky wants to encourage people to keep BPs together.

It's not that I want to "encourage" people to house BP's together. It's just that it's a known fact that many people do it and don't have the information readily available on how to do this correctly (should they choose to do it).

Not to start the "debate" back up again, but who can really be called "irresponsible" in this scenario; The person who wants to do it, the person(s) telling them not to do it (but not providing them with information of what guidelines to follow to ensure success and safety should they choose to do it), or the person giving them advice on what steps to take to do it correctly?

My "safe sex" analogy still stands. It's not enough to tell your kids just to "not have sex" when they ask. Kids will do what they do, just like adults will do what they do.

I think providing education on how to do anything safely and correctly (whether you approve or disapprove) is the responsible thing to do. Ensuring the information is available and presenting it to people is not encouraging it. It's just there should it be needed.

J

[hhmoore]

That makes more sense...I suspect that some people read a few of the basic comments - like the one I mentioned about keeping a pinky in with a snake for more than a day - and assumed you were talking about pinkies. (personally, I couldn't figure out why one would be offering a pinky to a BP).
If you HAVE to leave live prey items unattended in a snake's enclosure, you should always leave a bit of food & make sure there is water accessible...but don't count on those measures keeping your snake safe. It's not a guarantee.
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I haven't read the debate, nor do I intend to...but recommending against something, then giving instructions on how to do it (especially with the qualifier "do it right/correctly", is pretty much giving tacit approval. Its like the family meeting where Mom lays down the law about some dumbass thing Junior wants to do, and Dad sits their nodding his his head in agreement the whole time...then, as soon as Mom leaves the room, Dad leans in offers Junior a few pointers and offers some form of help.

Your safe sex analogy - based upon what you said of it here - is crap. You can't compare trying to subdue a basic drive , especially one with physical, psychological, and social impact, to a husbandry practice that is somewhat controversial. At least not if you are want to be taken seriously. Kids ARE going to have sex; and the few that put it off a few years don't do so because of a sex ed class or some mid-adolescent heart to heart with their parents...especially if one of the parents gives a conspiratorial nod and says "but if you do have to do it, the condoms are in the bathroom closet, behind the shampoo".
Yes, there will always be a number of people that choose to house animals together, no matter who tells them otherwise. Bottom line is it can be done, if one is of the mind to do it. Heck, I've done it myself...and it wasn't a product of not knowing any better (and it wasn't that long ago). I just don't tell people not to do it, then explain that I do/did & tell them how... Does that make me irresponsible, or even less responsible than you? Careful now, you can't answer that UNLESS you have read any of my posts on the matter.

Just curious...did you suddenly get some new initials after your name? You recently commented to me that one wasn't likely to get published without them.

[RonCrawford]

Leaving a mouse overnight as you described is a big NO, NO. hhmoore advised well with placing food in the cage but I know first hand what can happen to a ball python if a rodent such as the one you describe is left in the container for a really extended period of time.

I think you were very fortunate to have a ball python that was not chewed up and was still alive the following morning. PLEASE, for the sake of your ball python, don't leave mice or rats (excluding pinkies) unattended overnight again.

[junkopardner]

I haven't read the debate, nor do I intend to...but recommending against something, then giving instructions on how to do it (especially with the qualifier "do it right/correctly", is pretty much giving tacit approval. Its like the family meeting where Mom lays down the law about some dumbass thing Junior wants to do, and Dad sits their nodding his his head in agreement the whole time...then, as soon as Mom leaves the room, Dad leans in offers Junior a few pointers and offers some form of help.

Well, HH, with all due respect, if you're not going to bring yourself up to speed on what you're making comments on, it's probably best not to make comments. I never "recommended" against it. Period. In fact, in this particular situation, I "was" recommending it, and providing the guidelines to continue what had been done successfully for 4 years already without any guidelines. But this was a special situation....


Your safe sex analogy - based upon what you said of it here - is crap. You can't compare trying to subdue a basic drive , especially one with physical, psychological, and social impact, to a husbandry practice that is somewhat controversial. At least not if you are want to be taken seriously. Kids ARE going to have sex; and the few that put it off a few years don't do so because of a sex ed class or some mid-adolescent heart to heart with their parents...especially if one of the parents gives a conspiratorial nod and says "but if you do have to do it, the condoms are in the bathroom closet, behind the shampoo".

Well, if you think that my safe sex analogy is "crap", then either one of two things is going on here; either you don't understand the analogy or
I didn't make it clear enough (or maybe even a combination of the two). But based on your rambling on about all of the nuances and specifics of sex, it's clear to me that you're missing the forest for the trees here. It's simply a "responsibility" issue. If someone asks you whether or not to do something that has potential "risk", it is your responsibility to at least provide them with the saftey guidelines on the given subject (regardless of what your feelings on it is). To simply say "No-don't do it; it's not safe" is completely irresponsible "if" you personally have the information on how to "still" do it, and do it safely. The analogy is simply this:

A) People (adults and children) for the most part do what they're going to do anyway. Be it housing BP's together against advice or having sex against advice.
B) Knowing this to be the truth, the responsible thing to do is present the guidelines on how to do either of these things as safely as possible. If you have the information of how to do it safely, and you're withholding that information for fear it could be construed as "condoning" it, then you're completely irresponsible in light of the facts.

That is where the analogy begins, and ends. I

I respect that you know more about reptiles than I do, but when you step into the area of verbal linguistics with a verbal linguist who has a degree in English, then you're on my ground and you're as out gunned as I am with you in Reptile knowledge.

Yes, there will always be a number of people that choose to house animals together, no matter who tells them otherwise. Bottom line is it can be done, if one is of the mind to do it. Heck, I've done it myself...and it wasn't a product of not knowing any better (and it wasn't that long ago). I just don't tell people not to do it, then explain that I do/did & tell them how... Does that make me irresponsible, or even less responsible than you? Careful now, you can't answer that UNLESS you have read any of my posts on the matter.


It can be done. It is done all over the world everyday. There are guidelines on how to do it properly, and if followed, it can be done safely and without incident.

And again, if you aren't going to read the thread, then why are you still making comments on a topic you clearly are ignorant about? It makes no sense to me. I never said "not" to do it in this case. In fact, I would never say "not" to do it at all, for whatever reasons, if the guidelines were simply followed.


Just curious...did you suddenly get some new initials after your name? You recently commented to me that one wasn't likely to get published without them.

I don't have the time or inclination to get into a publishing discussion with you. In the interest of brevity, if you're a writer who's writing out of the field of your expertise, then you research the subject and interview the best experts in the world on it and publish it. You are simply an "editor" at this point, and the wealth of information presented is "through" you coming from the most knowledgeable people on the subject.

But to really answer your question, most herp experts aren't writers, just like I'm not a herp expert. I could never write on a subject like this without these experts (Unless I happened to be a writer and a herp expert). But if you're going to present anything as specialized as this, you "have" to have experts with more after their name that "hobbyist" (which is why, no matter how much you know, I can't even interview you).

J

[junkopardner]

Well, what Ron said.

PDigg - Maybe I was a little rambling in my reply because you mentioned the word "test". I was simply pointing out that an isolated incident isn't a real "test", so be careful. Like my Grandfather used to say, "It works every time until it doesn't". The idea with any real test is to work it to death and then report. I'd say you got lucky.

I also had noticed that you mentioned in your initial post "a pinky".

"why it might be ok to leave a pinky inside the snake tank for more than one day"


It would seem to me that if that if the mouses name was "Pinky", that you wouldn't refer to it as "a pinky". I mean, my names is Jonathan, and I don't know who (including myself) would sanely refer to me as "A Jonathan".

It also seemed curious to me that you would name something you were feeding to your snake. Most people would only name "pets" in this situation. So by this logical assumption we would believe that you were feeding a "pet" to your snake, which makes no sense to me personally.

But what the heck do I know....


J

[hhmoore]

While I realize that you weren't the one that brought the topic to this thread, you did choose to expand upon it here...so you shouldn't be surprised that people already participating in THIS thread might comment on it (and do so without investigating your thread).

I have no interest in debating this matter here (been there, done that, in other places), so there is no reason for me to read the thread. The points you make there may well be very valid, but I just don't feel compelled to read it to find out - because I might then be inclined to comment, one way or the other.

I have already acknowledged that some people will choose to house animals together, and that I have done it in the recent past. I have also never told anybody that they couldn't do...though I have expressed that the practice generally isn't recommended. Sometimes I offer details and explanations, sometimes not - it depends on a variety of factors, including my mood of the moment.

[junkopardner]

While I realize that you weren't the one that brought the topic to this thread, you did choose to expand upon it here...so you shouldn't be surprised that people already participating in THIS thread might comment on it (and do so without investigating your thread).

The only reason I commented on it all was because Deb chimed in that I was "encouraging" this practice (with the implication that I was as irresponsible as the original poster of this thread). That's why I "chose to expand" upon it here. And I would assume that anyone who felt inclined in this thread to comment on my expansion on this topic to know what the topic was about 'specifically'. And quite frankly
I am surprised that anyone would comment on it without investigating it.

I have no interest in debating this matter here (been there, done that, in other places), so there is no reason for me to read the thread. The points you make there may well be very valid, but I just don't feel compelled to read it to find out - because I might then be inclined to comment, one way or the other.

Feel free. It "is" in the debate forum now. So no need to worry about having your thoughts on this subject interfered with or deleted.

I have already acknowledged that some people will choose to house animals together, and that I have done it in the recent past. I have also never told anybody that they couldn't do...though I have expressed that the practice generally isn't recommended.

It's not "recommended" because of ignorance. That is why this issue needs to be cleared up.

I've already answered that, but I think I will give it a bit more response. The topic was brought up in a thread I was participating in, so I addressed it. To state, or even assume, that I am clearly ignorant of the topic does you a disservice.

I never suggested that you were "ignorant" on the topic of communally housing Ball Pythons. I said you were ignorant on this "specific" situation and thread. You were saying that I said "No, don't do this; but here's how you do it", for one. In addition to that, this was a very different situation than just some random poster asking whether or not they should throw two in a tank. It also does me no disservice to point out what the ignorance pertained to specifically.

Do you really think that I haven't read and been involved in several similar discussions, or that there has been any amazing revelation posted within that thread? I've seen the overflow into other areas of this site, so I suspect I pretty much have the gist of it.


I think it's possible that you could have read every thread in the world regarding this topic; just not the one you were commenting on.

J

[deborahbroadus]

[junkopardner]

If you have a degree, you know how words work. I didn't "imply."

For you to say you are not encouraging people to "step outside the box" (your term) has me shaking my head in wonder

Well, if your weren't trying to imply in your comment "AND..Junky wants to encourage people to keep BPs together." that I was some crazy iconoclast encouraging people to just "throw caution to the wind" then what were you saying, exactly?

I don't miss much Deb. I've dealt with read-between-the lines-passive/aggressive types my whole life. And when I'm wrong, I have no problem being the first to admit it. So if I'm wrong here, just show me by elaborating on what you were trying to communicate.

Your comment that I quoted above was posted in the middle of this thread, and this thread has nothing to do with that particular topic.

And I'm not "encouraging" anyone to "step outside the box". Keeping two BP's together is not stepping outside of the box at all if the guidelines are followed. (Go back and read Ken's article on this site; the guy knew what he was talking about).

I also cannot recall ever using the phrase "step outside the box", and even if I did I know I didn't use it in the context you're suggesting.

J