RCReptiles.com

[Monty is my Python]

oh Ron it was such a happy forum... WHY!?!?1?!?!!!!!!!!!

[jb.t3ch]

[deborahbroadus]

Junk, people have compiled a list of reasons, the chiefest (is that a word?) the cannibalism issue.

Now, before we get into the issue of ZOO's doing it. Zoos also have quite a bit more money than regular snake keepers and thus can call a vet if something goes wrong, but from my years of life experience...when something goes wrong in a public place, IT'S HUSHED UP. You probably won't hear them tell you about the screw ups, or that the two bps in there aren't the same one because one was egg bound and died, or that one ate the other. OH NO..they aren't going to tell you THAT.

I would like you to think on...HOW BIG ARE THE ENCLOSURES? (had to type that big so you could see it!!) We aren't talking about a 50 gallon or even 100 gallon? Are we talking about an created environment that provides almost the same environment in the wild? Is the space big enough were they don't come across each other except eventually for breeding purposes? How many times have their bps bred if ever and was it successful?

I think it patently ridiculous to be comparing ZOOs with the average BP pet keeper! That's like comparing apples to oranges, but of course YOU know that right?

Are you also aware that Zoos don't take the best care of their animals REGARDLESS of how they are housed? So why should anyone want to emulate them? You keep asking for reasons why it's bad and that shows just what you are, because I myself outlined some reasons, Ron outlined some reasons the chiefest is that HE CAN THINK OF NO REASON WHY ANYONE SHOULD HOUSE TWO BPS TOGETHER. You were rude enough to completely ignore his statement and ASK for an exception after the man said (let me repeat) HE CAN THINK OF NO REASON FOR ANYONE TO HOUSE TWO BPS TOGETHER (paraphrasing here..so give me a break if it's not word for word).

You are reaching the end of a lot of our patience. You obviously are NOT happy here and would prefer to disrupt the boards (which is why we put you in the rubber room and we will eventually have it set up so that only the older members can get in and you will be effectively neutralized. NOT because anyone fears a challenge..there have been people on here correcting our information and we WELCOME IT. These people have provided resources to back up their corrections, so your assertion that we don't want anyone to challenge us is completely baseless. You will be neutralized because you are a TROLL and no forum likes to have trolls!

[junkopardner]

Deb-

unk, people have compiled a list of reasons, the chiefest (is that a word?) the cannibalism issue.

"Cannibalism" is not even a reasonable argument. Ball Pythons are NOT snake eaters, in the wild or domestically. I was told this by more than one herpetologist specializing in snakes (and Ball Pythons/husbandry), and also told there are NO documented cases of true, blue cannibalism. The "instances" of this occurring wasn't "cannibalism", rather "fighting" over prey when not separated. It is a not a good idea to feed 2 BP's in the same enclosure, because you run the risk of "potentially" deadly fighting. So don't feed them in the same enclosure, and you have "completely" eliminated all risk of danger here. If you know of documented cases of BP's "cannibalizing" one another, please feel free to share. I've looked under every stone I know and have yet to see evidence to this fact. BP's are NOT snake eaters.

Now, before we get into the issue of ZOO's doing it. Zoos also have quite a bit more money than regular snake keepers and thus can call a vet if something goes wrong, but from my years of life experience...when something goes wrong in a public place, IT'S HUSHED UP. Laughing You probably won't hear them tell you about the screw ups, or that the two bps in there aren't the same one because one was egg bound and died, or that one ate the other. OH NO..they aren't going to tell you THAT.

Yeah, Deb, and when they were breeding their Ball's with space aliens with disastrous, potentially apocalyptic results, they picked up the direct line to Area 51 and a secret government agency repelled down ropes into the exhibit, diffused the situation, killed all potential witnesses and covered the whole thing up. C'mon, cover ups? Gimme a break.

The fact is that they house two BP's together, and have for years. They currently have two housed together as I type this. Maybe the reason that they don't have problems is because they're not complete frigging idiots. I posted the number for the San Diego Zoo and the hours to speak with herpetologists in the reptile exhibit. You're more than welcome to call up and they'll answer any of your questions. They were very nice, albeit a little on the ignorant side, yknow, "hiding" behind their PhD's and all......

I would like you to think on...HOW BIG ARE THE ENCLOSURES? (had to type that big so you could see it!!) We aren't talking about a 50 gallon or even 100 gallon? Are we talking about an created environment that provides almost the same environment in the wild? Is the space big enough were they don't come across each other except eventually for breeding purposes? How many times have their bps bred if ever and was it successful?

As for the size of enclosure, I didn't ask. Although I imagine it's probably not gigantic. If you'd like to know the size, call them up. I'm sure they'll tell you. As for the breeding, they don't breed. Ball Pythons can be found in shopping malls, for Gods sake. Why would a top ranked Zoo with the largest reptile exhibit on the planet breed something so common when they have 100's of species of reptiles and other snakes that are actually rare?

I think it patently ridiculous to be comparing ZOOs with the average BP pet keeper! Laughing That's like comparing apples to oranges, but of course YOU know that right?

I never was comparing Zoos to average owners. Zoo's have educated people and your average Ball Python owner is dumber than a bag of hammers.I was simply compiling a list of Zoo's that communally house BP's successfully. And they'll tell you it's no problem if you call them. The reason I'm compiling a list of Zoos is to prove that the "professional" community does this without problem or incidence all over the world. BTW, San Diego is just the first on the list. By the way, this came about because I brought up that Zoo's all across the world house BP's together successfully and someone wanted to know which Zoos, etc.

Y'now, its a little like I say something that's an irrefutable "fact" (ex. Many Zoo's communally house BP's successfully), then I'm called into question about it, then I prove it and provide you with the means to find out for yourself, and then there's a lot of stammering and stuttering around about cover ups and nonsense. If you want to cling to your foolish beliefs, then by all means, be my guest.

So I'm going to ask you a simple question: If Zoos all over the world do it successfully, is it fundamentally a bad idea? If there's so many dangers and difficulty inherent in it, then are the just "misinformed"?

Maybe you and some others should start gong around "educating" these institutions full of people with more degrees than a thermometer: zoologists, herpetologists , biologists etc. If you made the statements you and others have made about the "dangers" of communally housing BP's together in the educated reptile community, you would be laughed at. In fact, when several educated people I spoke to about some of things being said on here, they did laugh.

Are you also aware that Zoos don't take the best care of their animals REGARDLESS of how they are housed? So why should anyone want to emulate them? You keep asking for reasons why it's bad and that shows just what you are, because I myself outlined some reasons, Ron outlined some reasons the chiefest is that HE CAN THINK OF NO REASON WHY ANYONE SHOULD HOUSE TWO BPS TOGETHER.

This topic, if you'll remember, was started by someone who obtained 2 that had lived together for 4 years already. My advice was that if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it. And that there was nothing wrong with keeping the two housed together. Now, that's a fact. And as for anyone else who would want to keep more than one together, for whatever reasons, the fact remains that it's still a perfectly fine, acceptable thing to do.


You were rude enough to completely ignore his statement and ASK for an exception after the man said (let me repeat) HE CAN THINK OF NO REASON FOR ANYONE TO HOUSE TWO BPS TOGETHER (paraphrasing here..so give me a break if it's not word for word).

I've never been remotely rude to Ron or vice versa. In fact, quite the opposite. I didn't "ignore" what he said either. In fact, for most situations I comletely agree with him about it. But I think you're comletely missing the point here Deb, so let me put it in bold so you won't miss it yet again:

This topic, if you'll remember, was started by someone who obtained 2 that had lived together for 4 years already. My advice was that if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it. And that there was nothing wrong with keeping the two housed together.

You are reaching the end of a lot of our patience. You obviously are NOT happy here and would prefer to disrupt the boards (which is why we put you in the rubber room and we will eventually have it set up so that only the older members can get in and you will be effectively neutralized. NOT because anyone fears a challenge..there have been people on here correcting our information and we WELCOME IT. These people have provided resources to back up their corrections, so your assertion that we don't want anyone to challenge us is completely baseless. Laughing You will be neutralized because you are a TROLL and no forum likes to have trolls! Cool

Oh, so now it's "we" put me in here. So Ron didn't think a debate forum would be a good thing? He just created it so "I" could be "isolated" and "neutralized"? News to me. And if that's the case, then I must be a really, really special "troll" (as you love to accuse me of being). How many other "Trolls" get their own forums?

Also, I'm not "disrupting" the forums. All I did was give sound, fact based advice to a post only to be attacked and accused of not helping and giving "bad" advice. So, who "disrupted" the forum here? The fact is, you and your merry band of experienced "experts" don't like being challenged. Maybe you'd all rather be very large fish swimming around in an extremely small pond. When confronted and challenged to support your baseless claims of "danger" RE: this subject, you simply wilt.

You don't want to enter a large pond full of big fish in academia and the educated within the herpetological society because then you would know how little it is you do know.

It's a lot easier to feel like a genius on any given subject when you're talking to a bunch of novices daily that wouldn't know if you're were an educated genius or just plain full of crap.

Well, I'm calling you on it.

So pick up......


J

[junkopardner]

JB-

thats an easy way out, i dont have to find reason for it to be ok other than take my word.

I don't have to find a reason for it to be ok because it IS ok. Do you follow? The information and facts regarding this practice being perfectly acceptable are out there. And the information I've collected already is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg. The real question is, how many educated experts will it take to get you to see the light on this subject?

its ok says who? you give me the FACTS as to why its ok. you say you've talked to a zoo, so what a zoo has money and people who work for them (you might actually find a herpetologist @ a zoo) but herpetology is the study on reptiles and amphibians (thats a very broad topic). so is it ok to house all species together? if so then why, if not then why?

It's OK, according to educated people in the herp society. And by educated I mean Doctors of snakes with 100's of years experience among them collectively. As for the San Diego Zoo, their reptile exhibit is FULL of herpetologists who specialize in their respective areas. Who do you think a top ranked Zoo with the world largest reptile exhibit would hire to work in it? Someone like you? Or Deb? Or <insert your name here>?

And no, it's not advised to house different species of snakes together. If your question isn't a rhetorical one, I can provide you with that information. But I guess you could find that information yourself.

what study, what scientist, what herpetologist, what whoever has done enough solid research on this subject to say its safe? there have been multiple reasonings as to why one shouldn't house ball pythons together but what reasonings are there to support it other than some person saying "sure why not, we've done it and nothings happened".


It is COMMONLY accepted in the educated herp society that housing two ball pythons together is not a problem. People do it, Zoos all over the world do it. You may be in the majority on this site regarding the dangers of this practice, but I wouldn't be too proud about that.

J

[junkopardner]

So everyone (anyone) -

Since you refuse to listen to me on this subject, how many experts would you like me to get to weigh in on this subject, in print, with credentials AND contact information listed? Just let me know.

And as for this "troll" nonsense, go back and re-read the beginning of how this thread started.

#1. Someone asked a question on whether or not they should keep two BP's together that had been living together for 4 years (one since birth) successfully.

#2. I answered by saying if it ain't broke, why fix it and listed the accepted guidelines for successfully housing two together.

#3. I get called out for not helping, giving "bad" advice on the subject and having the gall to contradict some senior members.

#4. I naturally retaliate as anyone would when they're being accused of something that is completely baseless and false.

#5. I'm then deemed a disruptive Troll

#6. Then, all of the so called "evidence" presented on the dangers of housing two BP's together is totally contradicted by Zoo's, Herp Doctors specializing in snakes, etc.

And that's it in a nutshell.

If I were a Troll, and need to be "neutralized", then that would tantamount to "neutralizing" Frankenstein's monster and giving Frankenstein a free pass for creating him. Responsibility and accountability is a two way street here.

Simply put, the reason my tone hasn't been necessarily lovey-dovey is because I was provoked by being called out for giving bad advice that very simply and factually was not bad advice.

With that being said, I am fully capable and willing to drop the "tone" and speak about these matters in terms of cold hard data and facts.

I apologize for my tone as my reaction to being called out was my responsibility. But then again, you can't exactly accuse someone of something that is false and possibly expect them to play all nice, either. In that respect, I feel that that burden of responsibility lies squarely on the shoulders of those who called me out for giving "bad advice" when very simply I was re-iterating a commonly accepted practice at the world's most respected Zoo's and within the highly educated herp. society.

So, now that I've accepted responsibility for my less than congenial tone, and apologized to anyone who may have been offended, I'm ready to move on with a debate about the "facts" regarding this issue.

Respectfully Yours,

Jonathan

[deborahbroadus]

[deborahbroadus]

[junkopardner]

So, I apologize and am ready to debate "just" the facts, and this is the response I get?

(By the way, none of this has to do with the debate of communally housing Ball Pythons, but......)

I have purchased a thermostat from Spyder Robotics (the Herpstat ND) and I'm quite pleased with it.

My girlfriend's son (we aren't married) is improving. His kidneys are beginning to function again and that's a start. Any day things don't get worse is a great day.

I hardly think that eating a Reese Cup I dropped on the floor of truck-stop bathroom once suggests that I make a habit of it. I used that story to illustrate a point in microbiology. (The main reason I did it is because I was with a friend of mine who's a microbiologist and it was sort of an in joke, about fear and ignorance).

As for the "creating" me part, can you site one instance where I took a nasty tone with someone before I was called out for giving bad advice?

I was nothing but nice up until that point. In fact, when a member took a nasty tone with me for no good reason, I politely pointed it out and let it go. I could have gone all "troll" on them, but I didn't, did I?

That's because I wasn't a troll then nor am I now. I'm just a guy on a Ball Python forum that chimed in and told a poster the steps to take in communally housing Ball Pythons, only to be attacked and accused of giving bad advice. And I got peeved.

For that I apologize and accept full responsibility. I would hope that others, including you, could do the same so we could just get to the facts on this, without all the nastiness.

Jonathan

[deborahbroadus]

Jonathan,

Your apology was actually worthless because within that apology you actually insulted me several times. Here's one.

[junkopardner]

hummmmmmm... http://www.hsus.org/press_and_publications/humane_society_magazines_and_newsletters/all_animals/volume_6_issue_2_summer_2004/all_too_often_not_so_fun_zoos_and_animal_exhibits.html

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/activities/shame.htm

Well, the humane society is hardly an objective source. Why not include a link to what PETA has to say about Zoo's. That's why I stated in a previous post the the oldest recorded Ball Python came from a zoo. I highly doubt that guy was hating life.

And I agree that Zoo's are inhumane, in large part, because they cage wild animals.

So Deb, where do you keep your snake?


You are presenting illogical debates, I do not recall anyone saying that it CAN'T be done, we have advised against it.

What's illogical?

And of course you can't say that it "can't be done", because anything can be done. You can't say sticking a Ball Python in a blender and hitting Frappe "can't" be done, because obviously it can.

But is it advisable?
No.

That's the issue here.



It is not a matter of cannibalism not being the norm. it is the RISK.

So you know all the facts about that picture? The source, the husbandry practices etc?

There is no risk of "cannibalism" with communally housing Ball Pythons.

Once again, Ball Pythons are NOT snake eaters, like some other species of snake. I was told by three different Herpetologists that specialize in snakes (and have extensive knowledge of BP's wild and domestic) in reference to this picture that this is very obviously a result of negligence.

Ball Pythons are not snake eaters, and there are no recorded cases of true "cannibalism" among BP's (as opposed to say, King Snakes).

It was determined that this picture tells a very rare (and sad) story of a caregiver that was feeding two snakes in one enclosure, at the same time. And even this is a rare result when feeding two at the same time in the same enclosure (fighting is much more common, they said). And it's NOT cannibalism. It's more akin to sharks in a feeding frenzy.

This risk was only acknowledged if they weren't separated during feeding.

If they were separated during feeding, and put back after feeding, the consensus thus far has been that there is "zero" risk of this occurrence.

The only caveat being that it is a possibility for two "males" sharing an enclosure during breeding season (when they're more hormonally aggressive) to fight occasionally. Not "to the death" or "cannibalism", but nonetheless because of the possibility of this behavior it's recommended to be careful when housing two "males" together, especially during breeding season.

With that out of the way, the consensus on male/female, female/female communal living is that there is no risk factor at all. Also, in reference to differences in size, the consensus was that it's a good rule of thumb to, if your going to house any two animals together, keep them roughly the same size because of occasional "dominance" issues.


When a wild animal is forced to live in a way that is not inherient to its natural instincts.

You mean like in a Zoo with experts in the field caring for them?

Seriously though, who would you put your trust in when it came to the health of your snake if you only had two choices; The Humane Society, or a Dr. of Herpetology that specializes in snakes, including Ball Pythons?


It can and does have those instincts rerouted. The incidents of snake eating snake while not common can not be discounted because of human error. Forums get many posts about bites that happen because of a SFE (stupid feeding error) why should anyone submit a helpless animal to conditions that may prevert it's instincts. We are human..therefore, we would like to eliminate the unnecessary RISKS to the snakes when at all possible.

If you "read" the advice I gave, it mentioned feeding them separately.

If you follow the guidelines (and that includes feeding them separately), then there is no chance of a "stupid feeding error".

The only stupid feeding error is not using the guidelines and feeding them together in the same enclosure.

If the advice is followed, again;

no risk.


Jonathan

[deborahbroadus]

Never mind, I forgot this is the debate room...carry on.

Just let me fumigate this place!

[junkopardner]

Deb -

Your apology was actually worthless because within that apology you actually insulted me several times. Here's one.

Quote:
It's a lot easier to feel like a genius on any given subject when you're talking to a bunch of novices daily that wouldn't know if you're were an educated genius or just plain full of crap.


Deb, this part of a post about 2 posts before my apology. This wasn't part of the post where I apologized.


Quote:
As for the "creating" me part, can you site one instance where I took a nasty tone with someone before I was called out for giving bad advice?

This isn't part of my apology post either, but I don't see how this could be percieved to be an insult, either. ???

You also apparently have overlooked some of the links that were posted there including links to back my claims that Zoos aren't the be all and end all of anything and I frankly would not follow much of what they say or do.

So by this statement do you mean to suggest that Zoo's (and I mean "real" Zoo's; not some animals in a Mall parking lot), and all of the hundreds of years of combined experience of highly trained researchers, educators, etc don't know what they're doing with regard to communally housing Ball Pythons?

Your change in tone does not negate the fact that this is not a debatable topic. What are we debating??

Well, we're debating the "risk" factor in communally housing Ball Pythons.

More to the point, that if the the guidelines are followed, it's a perfectly fine and acceptable thing to do, should one choose to do it, versus the belief that it's a high risk proposition that shouldn't be done at all.

We agree that they CAN be kept together. YOU are saying that we said it couldn't be done and this is an obvious lie based on the facts of the posts. Maybe you read too fast, I do not know. Cool

No. We're not talking about whether or not they CAN be housed together.

We're talking about whether or not this is safe or unsafe if the guidelines are followed (as laid out in my advice to Ferals quandary about whether or not to keep them together or separate them).

Frankly, I don't care why you ate off the floor of a truck stop restroom, and do not care if you were doing it to impress a microbiologist friend.

No, no...I didn't do it to "impress" him. We were in agreement about biological issues, and it just sort of happened so I seized the opportunity to stretch the boundaries of the belief. I don't think he would have pushed it that far.

I am happy that the boy is better, have they found how HOW he got E.coli? (post updates in the appropriate forum so that we will not have to move it later, we will not leave a shadow.)

I forgot to add that they still don't know what it is. They kept saying E. Coli but every test for every strain kept coming back negative.

J

[NickMyers03]

i have realized that all questions posed have a 50/50 answer. there is no right way or wrong way to do something as there will always be someone on each side.

now i have stayed out of this since yesterday afternoon but have YET to see you state any source with PROOF that you actually spoke with these people. as i stated before i would LOVE to talk to them. I am a student and am always learning and if they are able to teach me a reason why this is ok then fine...if not i find no logic in it as i am not willing to risk thousand dollar animals.

please do not just state " i have spoken to this person" or " these people with this degree" i would like to see written evidence showing these facts that can be traced back to them.

Thank you

Nicholas

[junkopardner]

Nick-

What exactly do you need? I mean, do you need "x" number of experts? And in what fields of study? Would you like experts from the best Zoo's in the world that actually do this successfully?

Just let me know what specifically you need, I'll get it in writing, cut and paste it here with credentials and contact info. Or, again, you can just start calling Universities, Zoo's, etc and speak to anyone in Herpetology that specializes in snakes.

That's what I did.

I posted the number and times for the San Diego Zoo, which houses the largest reptile exhibit in the world, and also have communally housed Ball Pythons for years with success.

I know it's been years because I haven't been there since 1992 and they were doing it then (remembering that made me call them first; that, and they're in the very top ranked zoos in the world with a massive reptile exhibit).

They have several herpetologists on staff at the exhibit. They also have Zoologists, Biologists etc. So you can virtually take your pick.


If you're a student Nick (and I believe you are), there's a wealth of information out there on this topic and others by highly educated experts with years or experience in classrooms, laboratories and in the wild.

Since this came up, I've learned a lot more than just the acceptability of communally housing BP's (I pretty much knew that already, which is why I stated the guidelines for doing it).

Cheers-

J