| |
| Author |
Message |
deborahbroadus
Moderator
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 6671
Location: Baltimore, MD
|
 Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:54 am Post subject: |
 |
| junkopardner wrote: | Nick nailed nothing.
When I asked the question about transporting my BP back and forth between 2 different enclosures every two weeks, all I got was a lot of "Don't do that". "Not a good idea"
What I've observed in certain members of this board is that they don't like to be challenged. They're too soft. They perceive it as an attack. And by a novice, no less!! Well, how dare he question me and my infinite wisdom and experience? He knows nothing.
Well, there was a day when you guys knew nothing. And then you absorbed a lot of information, got a snake (or many snakes) and got a lot of experience. But how much do you really know? More than me, to be sure. But that's not saying much right now, is it? I mean, you should know more than a novice, right?
It seems that because you have some knowledge and experience then, well, you're just right, darnit. Let's say, for instance, that my snake continues to be fine with the transportation. Well, I guess that would just be luck, wouldn't it? Or, the "exception", not the rule?
"Is it ok for me to transport my snake between 2 different enclosures every 2 weeks?"
"No. Bad Idea"
"Why"
"Stress" "Increased risk of infections and health problems"
"So, who here has done it?"
<Crickets>
You see Deb, when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
J |
See, that's the "Yes, but..." tune. We answered, we referred you to stress, you need only to research and find stress related illnesses in BPs.
If you need to be spoon fed, and have that very specific answer answered in a very specific way let me try.
Ok, we already agree that BPs are easily stressed animals, this is a "commonly accepted premise and belief" backed up with examples. Ok example a:
In a new home it sometimes takes a bp time to adjust and start eating. (agree? or want to debate the point?) Say you agree then it's a short hop skip and jump to see the relation in short moves on a regular basis. Say you want to debate..then I would have to point out the many posts where someone has just brought a snake and is screaming "HELP! my snake isn't eating, or pooping or whatever) The accepted resolution is to leave the animal alone and give it time to destress, agree or want to debate more?
It's not a matter of feeling "challenged" it's a matter of knowing a pointless discussion with someone that simply wants attention and not information. If I gave you the information and you asked why and I gave you more information by all means go research and come to your own conclusion and find what works for you.
But don't come back and say something like, "my bp likes it at 98 degrees or anything similar because it just shows exactly how little you understand the snake. Now research that and find out why we know that the snake does not "LIKE" it at 98 degrees (we are talking substrate temps here) and then come back and ask for more information, but just "vomiting" up what you heard, or read somewhere else that contradicts what is said here is POINTLESS.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
|
uncle_flo
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 21
Location: America, Baby!
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:56 am Post subject: |
|
| junkopardner wrote: | "So, who here has done it?"
<Crickets> |
Lookin forward to hearin the results of this and any other experiments youre performin on your snakes.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
junkopardner
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Posts: 125
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: |
|
If you want to debate, I am sure a lot of people would enjoy that. I love a good debate on topics, "why" questions etc. What I don't enjoy is "ring around the rosie."
Many of you probably have met a person that plays this game, it's played to the tune of "Yes, but...!" Laughing The player debating, never addresses the points that are brought up, but simply overlooks them and brings in more information and so the game goes.
If you go back and look, I addressed every point on housing two snakes together and even called a herpetologist AND asked my vet about it. The information is the same, people. It's not changing. Are there freak occurrences like cannibalism? Obviously. But do you (not you personally) expect me, or any reasonable person, to believe that something like that is a common thing? C'mon. If it were "common", then there wouldn't be so many people (including professionals) that say you can successfully house two together if you follow the basic guidelines and separate them IF there are any problems.
I understand the need and desire to learn, been there done that. What I don't understand is that if you want to learn why you post the inquiries the way you do. If you sincerely want a debate, wouldn't it be better to ask why some do this or that and what's the commonly accepted way..then everyone can say how they do it.
I believe I did ask many questions. And I'm sure I'll ask many more, and then more questions off of those answers. And on and on and on.....that's part of how you learn. As for my being a bit testy in my presentation, I feel I was justified in that. Just go back and re-read the whole thing start to finish. I was being called out for giving standard advice on the steps to take should you choose to keep 2 BP's in 1 enclosure. I was told I wasn't helping, I was giving bad, dangerous advice, that I needed to be "educated" about the topic (that's a laugh) etc. So yeah, if my tone left something to be desired, there's a perfectly good reason for that.
Telling us we appear (and you KNOW you meant us) to be "pu**ies" and that we are fearmongers isn't the best way to begin a healthy debate.
Um, once again, when I said the all powerful, almighty "P" word, I was NOT referring to anyone on this forum. I was saying that collectively, humanity has turned into a bunch of a part of the female anatomy that is too taboo to mention. Specifically (in my post) how it pertains to germs, bacteria, viruses.... It's like the whole world morphed into Howard Hughes or something. No wonder there are super bugs popping up so fast the CDC and the WHO can't keep up.
Fear mongers, YES! There's definitely A LOT of that going on here. It's like an extremely overbearing Mother that tells you not to go outside in the cold without your coat on "because I said so". And then when pressed, she says because you'll catch your "death of pneumonia" And then when you explain to her that there is scientific or medical data to support a correlation between cold weather and pneumonia, she runs over and grabs a copy of her Worry magazine and pulls out a page that covers a story about a child who got terribly sick (or died) because he didn't wear his coat outside. When you say, "well, I'm sure that's uncommon..." she interrupts and says, "Well, better safe than sorry!!"
Whaaaaa????
J
Last edited by junkopardner on Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
deborahbroadus
Moderator
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 6671
Location: Baltimore, MD
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:07 am Post subject: |
|
sigh..we never said it was "common." If I recall correctly, we said it was a risk. Now having said that, it was the person who asked the questions, right to decide if they wanted to take that risk.
What we try to do is give enough information so that someone can make an "informed" decision. Your hijacking another person's post (we let you slide because you were new) was not helping the person. You were "debating" our advice to someone else.
WHY? did you have more information to offer? What you offer is already known and we believe that the risk is worth repeating just in case someone missed it. As for being "fearmongers" there are enough snakes dying out there from the inexperienced keeping of people that thought they knew better and could use "common sense" they have been posting, HELP, my snake is lost, or HELP my snake is making a popping noise...we have the least amount of those posts.
We will continue posting in a way that we have found effective. Hopefully, you will find information that you can use.
| Quote: | | Um, once again, when I said the all powerful, almighty "P" word, I was NOT referring to anyone on this forum. I was saying that collectively, the human condition has turned into a bunch of a part of the female anatomy that is too taboo to mention. Specifically (in my post) how it pertains to germs, bacteria, viruses.... It's like the whole world morphed into Howard Hughes or something. No wonder there are super bugs popping up so fast the CDC and the WHO can't keep up. |
Yes, unfortunately the word has morphed and you have just shown that you knew this. We can't even say the word anymore because of the other inferrences.
but I have to laugh at your statement that implies that it's the "fearmongers" that have helped super bugs to pop up so fast...I think people will agree that it's people eating off floors in questionable places that might have more of an impact than someone washing their hands everyday for example? 
Last edited by deborahbroadus on Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
NickMyers03
Moderator
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 1892
Location: fredericksburg va
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:10 am Post subject: |
|
Nick nailed nothing.
actually i did, when you state that you have more experience on this board about this or any subject your creating a false statement and it needs to be corrected. I am in no way the person with the most experience here or on any board. Ron would be the one that i would go to when i have questions about certain subjects.
When I asked the question about transporting my BP back and forth between 2 different enclosures every two weeks, all I got was a lot of "Don't do that". "Not a good idea"
sorry i wasnt there to respond for that... if you would like to drum up that post for me that the members only gave those exact two responces i can post my thoughts. i move snakes every day, being it for breeding reasons or moving males twords the bottom the the rack to help them cool to produce sperm or just because i want them set up diffrent. i see no problem in moving them as long as they are put with the correct set up. when they move from one tub to the other in my house they encounter the same smells. its not like im throwing them in a completely diffrent environment.
What I've observed in certain members of this board is that they don't like to be challenged. They're too soft. They perceive it as an attack. And by a novice, no less!! Well, how dare he question me and my infinite wisdom and experience? He knows nothing.
its odd that you will tell us that we are soft, as i dont see anyone that has backed down from giving the correct info to you as you spew out BUT's and WHAT IF's. I think its rude to attack us in this way as we have done ntohing but try to help you... the bolded statement was actually funny, you do have a funny side.
Well, there was a day when you guys knew nothing. And then you absorbed a lot of information, got a snake (or many snakes) and got a lot of experience. But how much do you really know? More than me, to be sure. But that's not saying much right now, is it? I mean, you should know more than a novice, right?
I thought you had more experience? and whats funny is again you are trying to dumb us down by saying that in the years we have owned these animals we dont know much more than a novice.. i dont do why you have to attack our ability and knowledge. I have a feeling you have more experience in something, if i needed advice in this i dont believe i would argue with you to such a point being that you may have YEARS of knowledge in this subject.
It seems that because you have some knowledge and experience then, well, you're just right, darnit. Let's say, for instance, that my snake continues to be fine with the transportation. Well, I guess that would just be luck, wouldn't it? Or, the "exception", not the rule?
as i stated above, i transport my snakes from tub to tub. the only way to get a snake from point a to point b is to trasport them. Luck has nothing to do with it unless you were driving for a few hours and the transporting package isnt set up correctly.
"Is it ok for me to transport my snake between 2 different enclosures every 2 weeks?"
I clean every week and some times more than that if needed. when you clean you are providing new smells and a clean new enviroment... they settle in faster because all the smells arnt new but the answer is YES. if you are constantly going to other places and bringing your snake, make sure it is packaged correctly for transport and you should be fine. There may be some stress caused by this but that is your call.
"No. Bad Idea"
"Why"
"Stress" "Increased risk of infections and health problems"
"So, who here has done it?"
<Crickets>
You see Deb, when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Debs not the hammer... but i will take that name if need be.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
NickMyers03
Moderator
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 1892
Location: fredericksburg va
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:24 am Post subject: |
|
| Quote: | | If you go back and look, I addressed every point on housing two snakes together and even called a herpetologist AND asked my vet about it. The information is the same, people. It's not changing. Are there freak occurrences like cannibalism? Obviously. But do you (not you personally) expect me, or any reasonable person, to believe that something like that is a common thing? C'mon. If it were "common", then there wouldn't be so many people (including professionals) that say you can successfully house two together if you follow the basic guidelines and separate them IF there are any problems. |
please provide the names and numbers of these two people. i would like to give them a call and discuss the issue.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
junkopardner
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Posts: 125
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:31 am Post subject: |
|
What we try to do is give enough information so that someone can make an "informed" decision. Your hijacking another person's post (we let you slide because you were new) was not helping the person. You were "debating" our advice to someone else.
"Hijacking?" Is this a forum for everyone on here, or am I missing something? And thanks for "letting it slide" because I was new. <cough>
And pray tell how was my advice not "helping"? Once again, it was the EXACT same advice on this very site in the articles section. It's not some kooky, deadly advice that I just pulled out of my, er, um, "bottom". So you tell me, was it really about me giving "bad" advice, or did it have more to do with the fact I was contradicting your advice?
"Pay no attention to the Man behind the curtain!!!"
While you all were busy showing pictures from Worry magazine and talking about health concerns, I was telling them what to do should they choose the keep them together.
WHY? did you have more information to offer? What you offer is already known and we believe that the risk is worth repeating just in case someone missed it.
Oh, I see. So that's why I was the only person to post the steps to take to keep them together, right? Because it was "known". Maybe by you and the gang, but what about the poster who asked the question? And there was no danger of the poster "missing" the stated risks; that was pretty much all that was stated. And you wonder where one might get an impression of fear mongering......
As for being "fearmongers" there are enough snakes dying out there from the inexperienced keeping of people that thought they knew better and could use "common sense" they have been posting, HELP, my snake is lost, or HELP my snake is making a popping noise...we have the least amount of those posts.
Common sense is not common. Darwin used common sense.
We will continue posting in a way that we have found effective. Hopefully, you will find information that you can use.
I'm just suggesting that maybe the advice be a tad bit more objective. In other words, here's the advice, here's the risk. Done. And not so much of "here's the risk" "here's the risk" "here's the risk".....
Some of the members make it seem a lot of times like maintaining a Ball Python is like maintaining shuttles and rockets for NASA.
J
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
NickMyers03
Moderator
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 1892
Location: fredericksburg va
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:49 am Post subject: |
|
| Quote: | | Oh, I see. So that's why I was the only person to post the steps to take to keep them together, right? Because it was "known". Maybe by you and the gang, but what about the poster who asked the question? And there was no danger of the poster "missing" the stated risks; that was pretty much all that was stated. And you wonder where one might get an impression of fear mongering...... |
this is the basis of the last post.... guess what the reason we do not say this is what you should do if you keep two snakes in the same tank is because YOU SHOULD NOT...why would we give advise that can harm the snake/snakes? it doesnt make sence... where are the names and numbers i asked for.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
junkopardner
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Posts: 125
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:08 pm Post subject: |
|
please provide the names and numbers of these two people. i would like to give them a call and discuss the issue.
God, Nick. Do I have to do ALL the work for you? If you knew half as much about BP's as you claim, you wouldn't even be asking for this information.
The herpetologists name is Day Lincoln, and he is a "doctor" that has very extensive knowledge of BP's and Husbandry. He said, in part, that the reason that you find crazy rarities RE: attacks and cannibalism in communal living is negligence on the caretakers part, SPECIFICALLY as it applies to feeding. If fed together, this can happen. Other then that, it's a fairy tail with no empirical evidence or data supporting that domestically, or in the wild, they just randomly attack one another. His number I can give you off list, but it's his home number and I really would advise you against using it as he is a busy man. Why don't you just do your own research on this? Just call a Herp institute or a zoo or something...
You see, you learned something today. Who knows, if you did some real research and talked to people with Ph.D's on the subject you just might learn even more.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
NickMyers03
Moderator
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 1892
Location: fredericksburg va
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:17 pm Post subject: |
|
LOL why would i want this information?
i would like to contact these people and talk to them reguarding the conversation they had with you. I do not want to call my local zoo or anyone else for that matter because i have an intrest in these exact two people.
within your answer you seem flustered, and you seem to be missing a name and BOTH phone numbers. dont worry i will look up the accreditation of this person and their phone numbers. Busy or not when it comes to care of animals and if this person has a true passion they would love to talk to me.
Now if you want to throw out names with people i KNOW with a PHD thats fine, as i said before LETS GO. to become a doctor you have to have a wide range of Knowledge not just with one species..but in your mind i dont know anyone that smart ( and to copy you ) ( cough)....
why would you think i need to to call some one for some information? i only do because i want to speak to these people
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
junkopardner
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Posts: 125
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:20 pm Post subject: |
|
but I have to laugh at your statement that implies that it's the "fearmongers" that have helped super bugs to pop up so fast...I think people will agree that it's people eating off floors in questionable places that might have more of an impact than someone washing their hands everyday for example?
Deb...(sound of tire deflating)
Please just pick up the phone, call a microbiologist, ANY microbiologist and ask them if the proliferation of anti-bacterial EVERYTHING, Antibiotic abuse, etc. has had anything to go with bugs mutating into super bugs.
See what they say, and then you'll have learned something too. And you don't even have to take Microbiology 101 to learn it. Unless you want me to give you names and numbers too.
Now I know why certain members of this board get so offended when challenged about their knowledge of snakes.......
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Buck_99
Moderator
Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 1307
Location: Midlothian, VA
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:25 pm Post subject: |
|
| junkopardner wrote: | | You see, you learned something today. Who knows, if you did some real research and talked to people with Ph.D's on the subject you just might learn even more. |
Ph.D's are overrated. I saw a guy on Discovery channel the other day working on getting his Ph.D. in herpetology, and he'll get it too, but he didn't know the first thing about herpetoculture. A red-tailed boa escaped from him in the bathroom because he didn't take any precautions against it getting out of an ordinary sink. He also expressed amazement at the "coincidence" of so many of the boas he had captured shedding at the same time. Mrs. 99 and I were laughing out loud, because anyone who has kept more than one snake for an extended period knows that stress is one of the things that will make a snake shed. This guy saw coincidence, when in fact he was witnessing the effect of his actions. This is a herpetologist.
As to veterinarians, I can only say that vets will give their opinions but they're not always experts either. I've become discouraged because I've found myself educating my vet on some aspects of python ownership. If something goes terribly wrong I'll have to travel out of town to a different vet who my own vet considers an expert.
Finally, to my first point, let's stop asking the herpetologists and stick to professional herpetoculturalists instead. I know great herpetologists who have never kept a snake in their lives. It's a different skill set.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
junkopardner
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Posts: 125
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject: |
|
LOL why would i want this information?
i would like to contact these people and talk to them reguarding the conversation they had with you. I do not want to call my local zoo or anyone else for that matter because i have an intrest in these exact two people.
Oh, I see. So you're insinuating that I'm lying, huh? Well, I'm not. And if that's what you believe, then go right ahead. As for my Vet, you aren't getting any information on her and never were. She IS very busy.
within your answer you seem flustered, and you seem to be missing a name and BOTH phone numbers. dont worry i will look up the accreditation of this person and their phone numbers. Busy or not when it comes to care of animals and if this person has a true passion they would love to talk to me.
Ooohh, yeah, I'm terribly flustered. I can hardly type. I never said I would give you these names and numbers, by the way. I have scientific evidence supporting my claim that housing 2 BP's according to the guidelines is perfectly fine. That means the onus of disproving my claim (the same claim of people with, y'know, PhD's) rests solely on your shoulders buddy. Good luck with that.
Now if you want to throw out names with people i KNOW with a PHD thats fine, as i said before LETS GO. to become a doctor you have to have a wide range of Knowledge not just with one species..but in your mind i dont know anyone that smart ( and to copy you ) ( cough)....
Um, ok......
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
deborahbroadus
Moderator
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 6671
Location: Baltimore, MD
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:40 pm Post subject: |
|
| junkopardner wrote: | but I have to laugh at your statement that implies that it's the "fearmongers" that have helped super bugs to pop up so fast...I think people will agree that it's people eating off floors in questionable places that might have more of an impact than someone washing their hands everyday for example?
Deb...(sound of tire deflating)
Please just pick up the phone, call a microbiologist, ANY microbiologist and ask them if the proliferation of anti-bacterial EVERYTHING, Antibiotic abuse, etc. has had anything to go with bugs mutating into super bugs.
See what they say, and then you'll have learned something too. And you don't even have to take Microbiology 101 to learn it. Unless you want me to give you names and numbers too.
Now I know why certain members of this board get so offended when challenged about their knowledge of snakes....... |
We need a PLEASE DO NOT FEED THE TROLL! button.
My point was not that eating off the floor (in a truckstop restroom or anyplace else) would cause germs, to mutate but obviously that the person that is so fearful that they carefully wash their hands or practice any number of other "careful" "safe" practices wouldn't be the one that was the SOLE reason for the super germs morphing (but then again the super germs morph for a variety of reasons, not all of them because of using disinfectants etc..(I wonder what you house looks like..boy you are scaring me!)
BUT the one eating off the floor ingesting god knows what and perhaps not washing hands, and getting colds and what not..perhaps this person..in his body..has provided the kind of environment that a germ would need in which to morph..(I think those with common sense could see what I was saying...sorry YOU missed the point.) but unless my biology recall is very wrong (anyone can correct me, I am out of school and don't feel like researching, copying and pasting to prove that I am smarter than you.)  germs that get in a person can also morph to something else and sometimes that something else can be more resistant to common remedies.
But whatever the case may be...I would prefer to be careful (a long time ago people were dying of influenza, plague everything and they were none too clean).
Now..PLEASE ANSWER NICK'S REQUEST SO WE CAN GET TO THE BOTTOM OF YOUR CLAIMS.
Thank you.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
NickMyers03
Moderator
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 1892
Location: fredericksburg va
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:47 pm Post subject: |
|
this tread has become a flame thread bashing eachother not just by you but by us too and seems to be going no where.
you say you have proof? show it and state it or give up. there has been a lot of talk by you with showing no truth but by going off on how a newbie said they were stressed when seperated. i asked for the proof and have yet to see it. when asked for the numbers of these people you still wont give them, and you state that im trying to disprove you. This doesnt nothing but further my beliefs. i have a vet that is the largest in the area and tends to more species of animals than any around, yet if i bring up snakes he knows only general aspects of how they should be taken care of. being busy has nothing to do with it, i will wait for a call back because no matter how busy they are they always have time to talk even if its at 10 pm.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
Ball
Pythons for Sale
Ron's
Ball Python Blog
FAQ
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Search
Register
Log in