RCReptiles.com

[Feral]

The name came about several years ago when I was in high school my little group of friends all came up with nicknames for each other and because I was back then a bit of a rebel, wild, often off the wall and over all scary I got in a touch of trouble often and one teacher called me a feral child and asked if I was raised by wolves of by humans and well one of my friends was in that class and loved the name Feral, because I was wild then and not tamed. So I became Feral and over time I just really began to love the name so since then it has been my online name. Now I am pretty far off from wild and causing trouble, more of a mother bear now, though no cubs, but if you mess with me or mine you'll be in trouble.

[deborahbroadus]

[Feral]

Yeah, it happens.

[a_green]

[junkopardner]

Thanks for weighing in Ron.

I apologize for attributing the authorship of the Troubleshooting Guide to you, as Ken Felsman was the author. With that being said, is Ken Felsman wrong about the information he gives on housing 2 together? Also, I got to that article without going through the "articles" link somehow, and on the main article his name is listed on the very bottom left and pretty easy too miss. So again, my apologies for attributing the authorship to you. But as the owner of this site, would you say that you endorse the information in the articles, like the one by Felsman? Also, as for the picture you posted, would you say that a situation like that is common when housing two together? And what about all the other "specifics" of a situation like that? Like the snakes temperament, how much it was handled, health status, etc... In other words, could one reasonably assume that there are a lot of variables and intangibles in a situation of attacks or cannibalism between 2 BP's sharing the same enclosure? And are there any statistics or empirical evidence on the cases of 2 being housed together with no incidents vs. the cases where something terrible like this happened? Just curious if that data is even available.....

To Nick:

when I said, "Well, I guess you can but then again you argue that the world is really flat." I left out "could" before the word "argue"; I was typing fast. I mean to say that you"could" argue.....my apologies.

And isn't "changing instincts", as you say, exactly what you're doing to a snake in several of the situations I mentioned? As for your feeding point (re:frozen), you suggest that a snake is still "instinct" driven when it comes to feeding, even on a thawed, above room temp rodent where you have to jiggle it etc So why is it a commonly held belief that feeding them pre-killed makes them less aggressive if it's their "hunting" instinct thats being conditioned out of them, to some degree? Also, every time I've fed my BP (since I've had him), I never "jiggled" the mouse at all. I just throw it in his feeding enclosure and leave it for awhile while I'm writing. And not one time has he constricted around it. He just hits hard with his mouth and then slowly begins to swallow it. On a side note, I had a terrible time getting him to feed when I first got him because they were feeding him live AND he was in a new environment. So new environment change plus pre-killed took him some getting used to. But he did.

Also, I'm not giving out "information based on internet care sheets". In fact, part of what led me to this site was being skeptical of the information I was given initially. As I stated in another thread to AGreen, my skepticism doesn't come and go. I was a skeptic in the pet store, and I'm a skeptic now. I personally think that's a good thing. I like facts, logic, evidence, case studies.....those things. There's also a lot to be said for personal experience, and advice based on that.

But some things I've heard on the forum with regards to housing two together, pet stores, temps, transporting them from one enclosure to another (my situation) and various other subjects all seemed to go something like: Don't house them together at all, Don't ever buy from pet stores, the temps have to be exactly this, don't transport them etc. And if you do any of these things, and have success, then you're considered "lucky". It seems too convenient for me to say "this is a big no-no and this is why", and then when someone who has done the big no-no has no problems, well, then it's just explained away as luck. This is where I feel the snake isn't getting enough credit for being a highly resilient creature. Do bad things happen when you house 2 together, get one from a pet store, maybe don't have "perfect temps", transport them? Obviously this does happen from time to time. But bad things obviously can and do happen when everything is ideal as well.

I understand "risk management" advice, I really do. And I think it's good advice as well. But I also can't see when something contradicts risk management advice just chalking it up to dumb luck either. I also don't think any of the advice on these forums by the senior members is bad advice. If I did, I wouldn't be here.

As for "debating" you about BP experience, that would be foolish on my part because you obviously know a lot more about BP's than I do. That wouldn't be the debate anyway, as this has never been my argument. I'm coming from a Darwinian argument (ie survival of the fittest), NOT that I'm an expert in any one species of animal.

AGreen:

Your comments about the herpetologists vs. people that deal with this particular species everyday makes sense to a degree. But have you ever spoken with a really good herpetologist? They have a broad understanding of reptile life, history, evolution, etc. Even though you might think someone that deals with a specific herp everyday would know more than a herpetologist, you would be surprised at how much these experts know that you don't. (not you personally, but Bp owners, breeders, vets, etc). They have a very broad understanding of the "captive adaptability" of these creatures. It's not just always "dumb luck". I'll post more on this in time.

Buck:

You're the man. Keep up the good work.


Ryan:

Another straw man argument. Yes, I did say that and stand by it. When you state "For someone who know's so little about snake's your pushing a pretty lousy argument with a lot people who have more than experience in this field than you ever will." and use that statement in correlation to my quote in another thread about moving a BP back and forth between enclosures, you're distorting the issues to support your argument. In other words, when you say "a lot people who have more than experience in this field than you ever will" in reference to that quote of mine, your implying that people on this forum have had more experience than I ever will REGARDING the transportation of a snake back and forth between two enclosure every 2 weeks. I can safely say that although I only have a couple of months experience on this, I have more than anyone on here. And he's fine, eating, shedding good and showing no signs of health problems. He has a clean bill of health from the vet, but I'm still watching him carefully. And as for me "pushing a lousy argument" RE: 2 snakes 1 enclosure, once again i was simply reiterating what many other people have said regarding this subject; professionals and owners alike.

And also, like you, I love this board and it has helped me immensely.

Feral:

Sorry to refer to you a "guy". Apparently I've done that with AGreen as well by calling her Mr. Green. So, my apologies to the fairer sex.

J

[a_green]

[RonCrawford]

[junkopardner]

"Endorse" the information in the articles? This reminds me of the elections going on right now, "Governor from <state> just announced his endorsement of <candidate>".

Yeah, indeed. I certainly understand what you're saying here.

The articles section of the site is a compilation by many authors that may have their own perspectives on certain points. Do I agree 100% with each and every statement contained in their respective articles? It's very probable that there are statements that I do not agree with in certain articles. It's not as simple as saying 1+1=2 when it comes to various aspects of ball pythons. Some people have theories or "best practices" that may or may not be agreed upon by the masses, which leaves room for debate or further research.>>>>>>>>>>>>


Yes, yes and yes. This is exactly where I'm coming from. Trial and Error, years of personal experience. empirical evidence, "expert" theories and observations, case studies domestically and in the wild, Science, Biology, Darwinism.......the whole ball of wax, so to speak. When I tackle something, I never go halfway in. I go all the way. And when I purchased my BP, I knew I was going all the way. It's different than owning a domesticated dog or cat, y'know? I'm fascinated by these little dinosaurs and I want to know everything, from as many perspectives as there are, and from as much data as there is. This is good thing for me, and if everyone were as obsessive about knowledge as I am, then it could be a great thing for the species in question. "Learning" gets me off. And it helps when you have a love of what you're learning about, and I certainly love my snake.


On this particular topic, I do not feel that ball pythons should be housed together. Despite my many years of close interaction with a vast number of ball pythons, I do not consider myself an expert even though I deal exclusively with this species and no other. Extremely knowledgable, yes. Expert, no. In fact, I just learned something today that I didn't know about ball pythons. We're always learning about them so no one is an "expert" or the final authority on ball pythons. We are all students learning about this wonderful serpent.>>>>>>>>>>>>

And to this i would like to point out that it IS a fact that there is so much erroneous information (and different opinions) about BP's that it's scary. There is obviously a reason for this, and I intend in the months or years to come to uncover as many stones as I can.

With respect to housing more than one ball python together, it is my experience that they should not be housed together other than breeding and I won't go into the details in this post because my position can be read at depth in my blog. Can people keep more than one ball python together? Yes, many people do it. Should they keep them together? In my professional opinion, no. I feel that if a person is not in a financial position to purchase another cage for the other ball python (assuming it's a pair) then this person should not have more than one ball python. I would further argue that if such a person is unable to afford another cage then it's very plausible that this person is unable to afford a visit to the vet (along with meds) in the event their services were required. If someone is unable to afford the services of a vet along with meds then that person should seriously ask themselves if they should keep the animal and the responsibility it requires of them.

I completely, totally agree with you on this point. When I stated that "I" could never see a reason for doing this (other than financially), I was also bringing it back to this specific situation, where they had already been housed together for years. The only logical reason for why someone would have one, get another, and put them both in the same enclosure would have to do with lack of finances and nothing else. Why else would you put 2 together when you could just set up a different enclosure? Money is the only answer. And I know how much money it is to set up one.

But this situation was different because they had already been housed together for 4 years. So that's part of where I was coming from...

I can think of no other valid reason for a person deciding to keep more than one ball python housed together as pets other than the fact that he or she cannot afford an additional cage/tank, especially when there is a strong argument as to why they should not be housed together. Some can argue that the masses believed the earth was flat years ago and they were wrong. Yes, this and other comparisons are true and can be debated ad nauseum but for someone to knowingly house ball pythons together when such strong arguments exist against it is utter foolishness since simply separating them would immediately resolve and put an end to such a trivial issue.

Agreed. I was just thinking that since this wasn't a "money" issue, and that they had been together that long and were doing well, why try to "fix" it if it obviously wasn't broke? So the advice I gave was based on the advice of people that have had success and professionals that said it was generally alright if you followed the specific guidelines for doing it.

Thanks for weighing in (again), and for the great site.

J

[RonCrawford]

We just added a "Debates" section for anyone that wishes to continue further debate of this topic. Please continue it there, thank you.

[junkopardner]

AGreen:

You've never heard that feeding pre-killed is "believed" to make a snake "tamer" because it decreases aggression vis a vie the "hunting" instinct (that is aggressive in nature)?

The herpetologist I spoke to even suggested evidence to that fact.

We all know the potential dangers of "live" prey injuring a snake etc.

But what I'm referring to is "conditioning" some of the aggression out of your snake by reducing the "hunting" instinct that they instinctively have hardwired in them.

J

[junkopardner]

Thank you sooooo much Ron!!

A debates section is perfect for these matters.


All the best-


J

[NickMyers03]

[deborahbroadus]

[deborahbroadus]

[junkopardner]

Nick nailed nothing.

When I asked the question about transporting my BP back and forth between 2 different enclosures every two weeks, all I got was a lot of "Don't do that". "Not a good idea"

What I've observed in certain members of this board is that they don't like to be challenged. They're too soft. They perceive it as an attack. And by a novice, no less!! Well, how dare he question me and my infinite wisdom and experience? He knows nothing.

Well, there was a day when you guys knew nothing. And then you absorbed a lot of information, got a snake (or many snakes) and got a lot of experience. But how much do you really know? More than me, to be sure. But that's not saying much right now, is it? I mean, you should know more than a novice, right?

It seems that because you have some knowledge and experience then, well, you're just right, darnit. Let's say, for instance, that my snake continues to be fine with the transportation. Well, I guess that would just be luck, wouldn't it? Or, the "exception", not the rule?

"Is it ok for me to transport my snake between 2 different enclosures every 2 weeks?"

"No. Bad Idea"

"Why"

"Stress" "Increased risk of infections and health problems"

"So, who here has done it?"

<Crickets>


You see Deb, when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

J