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Buck_99
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 Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:03 am Post subject: GTP Feeding Pics and Video |
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I discovered last night that Lilly had just shed, so I decided to feed her some rat pups that just arrived last week (33 newborn pups in one week). The second pup made for a better video, but it needs to be edited because it's kind of long, so that will come later.
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NickMyers03
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Joined: 12 Dec 2006
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Location: fredericksburg va
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:05 am Post subject: |
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great looking vid! now i know why you need tongs with them.
was wondering why you kept runnig away from the computer last night...
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Buck_99
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| NickMyers03 wrote: | great looking vid! now i know why you need tongs with them.
was wondering why you kept runnig away from the computer last night... |
Thanks, Nick!
Their aim is pretty good, and I think if there was a way to feed with your hands they'd hit the prey and not your fingers, but there's two problems:
- Chondros typically won't strike dangled prey. They like to strike it head-on. I think this increases their chances of not dropping it because they don't have to go through as much work to position the prey for swallowing after the kill (just my theory as to why). Since you can't dangle by the tail, you have to hold the prey by its body, and doing so with your hands is not advised!
- Chondros prefer to strike their prey from above it (usually, but not always). I try to bring the prey in from below, and with a tub set-up, the only way to do that is with tongs. Even if you had a chondro that would take dangled prey, if you held it by the tail and dangled it with your hands, you'd have to take your hands to the chondro's eye level to get the prey below the snake, and Hey! There's something that smells like rodent tail right in front of my face! Think I just might fancy a taste o' that!
So tongs it is! The longer ones help you deliver the prey all the way to the back of larger enclosures where the adults lay in wait. For Lilly and The Captain in their tubs, shorter tongs would work, but I just can't remember where I placed them and the long ones work fine too.
I think I mentioned last night: Captain 20 is in the tub directly above Lilly's, and because her tub was pulled open for the video, he was able to position himself to watch her eat. He seemed very interested. I also opened his tub night before last and he became super alert with tongue flicking madly. I'm thinking he'll start off as a strong feeder for me (fingers crossed).
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PyMama
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1646
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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That was so cool Buck....you are so right their aim is right on target!
This guy here in town is selling 3 Greens..2 from Jaya and one from..I forgot...
I was looking around for a page that will tell me about their origins and temperaments according to their birth of origin. I found one but Im dont think its complete.
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Buck_99
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Joined: 03 Nov 2006
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Location: Midlothian, VA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| PyMama wrote: | That was so cool Buck....you are so right their aim is right on target!
This guy here in town is selling 3 Greens..2 from Jaya and one from..I forgot...
I was looking around for a page that will tell me about their origins and temperaments according to their birth of origin. I found one but Im dont think its complete. |
Ok, I can only speak from my limited experience, but I have some information to offer on the topic of temperament by locality type. Short answer first (for those who don't want to waste precious time), then a long answer.
Short answer:
Calmest Locality Types:
- Aru
- Sorong/Manokwari (or anything off that peninsula...look up a map of Papua New Guinea (PNG) / Irian Jaya online and you'll see the peninsula I'm talking about, jutting off the northwest corner)
Nippiest Locality Type:
Mostly Calm Locality Types:
In general terms, with the exception of Aru's, the mainland types have the most docile temperaments. KEY POINT: The best indicator of what a snake's disposition is going to be is what the disposition actually is, assuming you observe it at the right age.
Long answer:
First up, let's define our terms and talk about the mysteries of chondro genetics. I'll be using the term "locality type" rather than "locality." Some folks will say this is a matter of semantics, but the more I think about it the more I see that the distinction is important. Locale (or locality) refers to the geographical location from which an individual specimen is collected. Good luck with verification! Locality type refers to a category of animals that share a general set of traits and who either (a) were collected in the same general geographic region, or (b) have ancestors who were collected in the same geographic region.
It is nearly impossible to get a true locality animal. How do you know for sure where it was selected? Also consider that the locality names are simply the names of towns and/or regions, usually ones with airports. Maybe the collector was working out of Town A but found the snake closer to Town B before returning to home base at Town A. What locality is he going to say it is? (Answer: whatever the buyer wants to hear) What locality is the importer going to call it? (Answer: a guy from Town B sold it to me, therefore it's a Town B snake) Chondros, for their part, are blissfully unaware of borders. In fact, they hardly even obey natural borders other than bodies of water. PNG is a mountainous place, and GTP's are known to live in low elevations, high elevations, and in-between elevations. They all have different traits, yet they integrade. So the collector heads out from Town C and collects some from up in the hills and others from down at the coast. They all have different traits, so it's pointless to say you've gotten a Locality C.
By contrast, you can get a snake of a specific locality type with some degree of confidence, because although there is wide individual variance within a locality type, there are general features they all (mostly!) share. So if you're looking for a Town A type and Town A types tend to have tapered black tails and silver eyes and yellow speckling on the sides, and the one you're looking at has those features and the seller has some family history documentation to show you, chances are decent it's a Town A locality type.
So over time a bunch of snakes were collected around Town A and it was determined that they all kind of had some traits in common, and they were categorized together so they could be sold to people who want to have some control over what it is they're getting (because the hatchlings all start out yellow, red, or sometimes brown, right?). People want to know what they're getting. The labeling of snakes as specific locality types attempts to fill that gap.
Meanwhile new snakes are collected from the same regions all the time and they don't fit all the specs for the type. Are they new morphs? A new type? 99% of the time the answer to both questions is no. They're just more specimens to add to the collective locality type group from which generalizations can be made and sometimes have to be adjusted. That is, IF you assume that the collectors have properly documented the true origin of the animals, which they definitely do not.
This is foreign to the way we've been trained to think by the ball python market. With many BP morphs you pretty much know exactly what you're getting. Connoisseurs like Ron, Nick and Deb with keen attention to detail can even pick out the more subtle morph types and know the probable outcome of breeding them together. No such luck with chondros, though. The genetics are far more confusing, except with the extremely rare simple receissive genes such as the albino gene. There are generally very few clear-cut morphs. You don't even hear the term "morph" used in chondro circles. I was just telling Nick last night that you see varying degrees of melanism within the same clutch. Blue parents can produce average looking green snakes (though there is no such thing as an "average looking" green tree python, in my opinion). So to a large extent, it's a crapshoot. When I select a chondro for appearance, the best I can hope for is to take the one I want to buy and look at its siblings from a previous clutch through the same parents. Even then, I'll see pretty substantial variance among the siblings, though in general I'll tend to find individuals in the previous clutch that resemble the one I want. That being said, appearance is the 2nd thing I look at.
Which brings me to temperament, which I believe is a trait like any other, as long as other variables are controlled (WC imports aren't gonna be too happy, for example). The clearest example is the Biak. Biak is an island north of PNG. The snakes there have lots of splashes of yellow, especially up near and on the head...though I've seen some that are mostly green. They are larger than other chondros. And they have a nasty reputation. As with any population, individuals vary and some are more docile than others, but by and large they tend to be nervous. From oberving my own Biak I think they're smarter too. But there are three bright sides to Biaks: (1) they're beautiful; (2) they combine well with other locality types to make some wild specimens; and (3) it seems not too difficult to get docile offspring from a Biak x [other] mix. My own Captain 20 is 25% Biak and 75% Sorong. He has that Biak intelligence in that he demonstrates immediate awareness of who it is exactly who is handling him (he looks to my head and eyes, then proceeds to get cozy, almost like he's acknowledging my presence and deciding he approves) (and yes, the astute reader will note that I've broken my 2-week rule), yet he is as relaxed and docile as any BP I have, owing to his Sorong heritage.
Aru is an island south of PNG, and Aru's feature white scales along their dorsum. They tend to be gentle. When you ask keepers about docile chondros, Aru's and Sorongs are the first ones mentioned.
So...where am I going with this? I don't know. I cleaned my cat yesterday and boy is my tongue tired! [chirp, chirp]. Sorry, wanted to see who's still with me. Um, the other big factors are CBB vs. imported specimen (duh...though I've broken this rule myself), and waiting until the hatchling is a year to a year and a half old before choosing it (if you break the first rule and get a farm hatched import like I did, then definitely don't break this second rule, and make sure the broker has established consistent feeding and provided documentation). That way it's easy to see what the snake will look like as an adult (mostly!), and the snake has settled in enough to the point where it feels more secure and its true, more adult personality can be observed. As babies they are universally nippy, but a well-established yearling will show its true personality. Getting an Aru or Sorong is no guarantee that the snake will be a charmer, so it's good to see the snake after it has matured somewhat.
Finally, I'll say this: if you like control, stick with ball pythons. They are wonderful. I want a caramel glow badly, or even an axanthic super bee or whatever they're called. Totally stunning. And if I want that badly enough, I know exactly what I have to do to get it. I'll probably kick off that breeding project one day (the axanthic super bee one). It's expensive, sure, but it's a project (or series of projects) with a clear objective in mind, and a very clear measure of success. Chondros are more like a box of chocolates: you never know what you're going to get. A person can kind of control it by taking the steps above, but much of the fun for me is the sense of mystery. They're all stunning, and I have no clue what my pairings would produce, but I know they would be beautiful because I have yet to see an ugly chondro. They're like Bertie Bott's Every Flavor Beans, without the bad glavors like booger or vomit. The one thing I do hope to accomplish, though, is to breed docile snakes. Although I'm saddled with a Biak because I didn't research temperament by locality type before my initial purchase, I am encouraged that I've found so many cases of Biak outcrosses where the personality disorder of the parents seems to have dissipated.
Picking the right individual is the key for me, and picking it at the right age. As long as I do that, I can at least guarantee that my own collection will consist of docile snakes. I can only hope their offspring will carry the torch. My experience with Captain 20's breeder this past weekend has me very encouraged about that.
But now that I'm thinking about axanthic bees, I should probably look over at Ron's site and see what's cooking. Wouldn't that rock? A green, blue, and yellow snake with red irises in one enclosure, and a black and white terrestrial snake in the next! YEAH!
Ok, slow day at work for me, multiple meetings got cancelled and I'm between projects, but I'll let the rest of you resume your lives. So ends another magnum opus post from yours truly. Really, I need a life.
Link to Gallery of Different Types (thanks for letting me share this, Ron):
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magana559
Joined: 29 Sep 2007
Posts: 1129
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:46 am Post subject: |
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Great vid Buck! was that a live rat pup?
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PyMama
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1646
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:37 am Post subject: |
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Got it...Merauke was the other....one I was thinking about.
Excellent info Buck...I need to print it....
GT are so beautiful...Im very fond of the Canary..Manokwaris ...designer high yellows and mustard...and the black one is amazing.
Thanks Buck
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Buck_99
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Location: Midlothian, VA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| magana559 wrote: | | Great vid Buck! was that a live rat pup? |
Yes.
I just learned that the second video - which was way clearer - is lost. I did a cut/paste (rather than copy/paste) from the camera's card to the destination folder, but the destination folder was full, and I didn't recover properly. So it was cut from the source but never saved to the destination.
Bummer! I had shot it from the other side, out of the shadow, and she was all spread out on her perch, and the strike and coil was really clear. You could see her taste it first before she attacked. Oh well, just try to imagine it, folks, 'cause I can't show you.
Arrggghhh....
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Buck_99
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Location: Midlothian, VA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, I recovered the second video. Not for the squeamish: she had a little trouble silencing this one. Methinks it was a hair too small for her.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EyyX0a8LkA
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PyMama
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1646
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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OK so Im just curious on how tame such great snakes.
I have been reading and it has been advise not to handle younglings one year or less...
If they havent been use to handlings during their first year...how would you even begin handling it after a yr to tame them?
How often? Understanding that it will always be an wild animal and respecting it as such...when would you consider it tamed down enough to feel alright with it. Would it depend on the owner and the level of comfort? Depends on the animal and its orgins?
Ok so maybe Im confused.. but they are awesome animals.
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Buck_99
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Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 1358
Location: Midlothian, VA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| PyMama wrote: | OK so Im just curious on how tame such great snakes.
I have been reading and it has been advise not to handle younglings one year or less...
If they havent been use to handlings during their first year...how would you even begin handling it after a yr to tame them?
How often? Understanding that it will always be an wild animal and respecting it as such...when would you consider it tamed down enough to feel alright with it. Would it depend on the owner and the level of comfort? Depends on the animal and its orgins?
Ok so maybe Im confused.. but they are awesome animals. |
You know, Py, I'm not sure myself how you make that transition from a hatchling you don't handle to a young snake you do. I don't know how breeders start that. Generally you're supposed to wait a year, but I've seen pictures of folks with 6-month old chondros in their hands.
How would I do it? I'd wait until they're one year old, take out the perch during midday, gently wake them up to make sure they know I'm there, and let them come off the perch to me. I would not force them off the perch or try to remove them on a first handling, but I'd very gently make the perch a less comfortable or secure place to be. I do this now with Ted when he's feeling stubborn: I turn him upside-down. He adjusts. I do it again. After a few times he gives up and gets on my arm and climbs off the perch, and I take over from there. It would be an exercise in patience.
Lilly and Captain 20 are about the same age as each other: hatched in September '06. They are fairly easy to coax off their perches, and they are extremely easy to handle. Much like ball pythons: heads squeezing through finger tips, tails wrapped around fingersw and arms, they don't mind touching under the neck and chin but prefer gradual contact vs. sudden movement or contact. My BP's are the same way, and just as with the balls, they evade when startled. They're faster than balls when they want to be, but when exploring they do it with that same deliberation, taking their time, checking things out. They're very curious as you walk around the house, always looking for better branches than you. If you let them they'll go top shelf and go on top of your head for a better view, and if you wear glasses, they'll use the slightest corner of them as an edge for support. They don't need much...they're like mountain climbers that way. When they get tanlged up in something, like lattice work, they let me unravel them without a fight or taking flight. I have no fear for my fingers, even as I'm grabbing parts of their bodies to untie them, right in front of their noses.
So based on these two chondros and a few others I've handled elsewhere, plus my adult male Ted, I'd say the myth about them being display snakes only is balogna. WC individuals and many (not all!) Biaks fit that stereotype, but CBB mainland and Aru chondros are pretty much busting that myth, But yeah, word on the street is let them get to a year old first before handling.
And Py, IMO, it's better to buy them at that age anyway. Yes, you miss the color change, but (a) you know what gender you're getting (neonates under 100g and 1 year cannot be safely sexed, no matter what anyone tells you); (b) you have a better idea of what they're going to look like when they fully mature; and (c) you get a clearer picture of their personality / disposition. Color change is overrated: some change over months, some over a few weeks, and there are isolated cases of overnight change. That's right: you can buy a neonate with the hopes of seeing the color change, and then totally miss it. By then you could be stuck with a malcontent...but I doubt it.
I guess I should post another handling video.
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deborahbroadus
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Joined: 16 Jul 2006
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Location: Baltimore, MD
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| PyMama wrote: | OK so Im just curious on how tame such great snakes.
I have been reading and it has been advise not to handle younglings one year or less...
If they havent been use to handlings during their first year...how would you even begin handling it after a yr to tame them?
How often? Understanding that it will always be an wild animal and respecting it as such...when would you consider it tamed down enough to feel alright with it. Would it depend on the owner and the level of comfort? Depends on the animal and its orgins?
Ok so maybe Im confused.. but they are awesome animals. |
I hear you on the "handling" issue Py! Your instincts are right on the money, there is no sense in not handling an animal (especially a snake) for a year and then suddenly start handling it (it's a year older and a year wilder and the teeth are bigger) and expect not to have problems. 
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Buck_99
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Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 1358
Location: Midlothian, VA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| deborahbroadus wrote: | | PyMama wrote: | OK so Im just curious on how tame such great snakes.
I have been reading and it has been advise not to handle younglings one year or less...
If they havent been use to handlings during their first year...how would you even begin handling it after a yr to tame them?
How often? Understanding that it will always be an wild animal and respecting it as such...when would you consider it tamed down enough to feel alright with it. Would it depend on the owner and the level of comfort? Depends on the animal and its orgins?
Ok so maybe Im confused.. but they are awesome animals. |
I hear you on the "handling" issue Py! Your instincts are right on the money, there is no sense in not handling an animal (especially a snake) for a year and then suddenly start handling it (it's a year older and a year wilder and the teeth are bigger) and expect not to have problems. |
I'm sorry you feel that way Deb, but I think you're mistaken. I think it really is as simple as just starting to handle them one day. I hang out in several chondro forums and I've been meeting some breeders, and I hear no horror stories of making the transition. Heck, nobody even talks that much about the nastiness of hatchlings. For all I know, that's a myth too.
My Sorong (age 5), my Manokwari (1.5), and my SorongxBiak (1.5) all testify to the fact that these snakes are docile. They don't even hiss at me, much less bite. The younger two don't even try to evade me! Yet they were hatchlings too once, and I know for a fact that Captain 20's breeder, who has a day job and many young snakes, doesn't have lots of free time to "tame down" the snakes. The reputation for nastiness comes from the fact that CBB chondros have been relatively rare until recently. The one locality type (Biaks) also bring down the reputation of the rest.
I'm going to talk to some breeders and see how they do it, but I'm willing to bet there's no special magic or long, drawn-out ordeal involved. Then I'll share it with everyone.
Py, don't let fear dissuade you. Go to a breeder and see for yourself.
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deborahbroadus
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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I am still interested, I was simply remarking on the handling issue that Py pointed out, which I feel makes no sense at all. All things being equal, environment, feeding correctly and eating, it doesn't make much sense not to be able to handle after it has adjusted (similiar to the wait period as other snakes).
Why the one year wait?
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Buck_99
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Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 1358
Location: Midlothian, VA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| deborahbroadus wrote: | I am still interested, I was simply remarking on the handling issue that Py pointed out, which I feel makes no sense at all. All things being equal, environment, feeding correctly and eating, it doesn't make much sense not to be able to handle after it has adjusted (similiar to the wait period as other snakes).
Why the one year wait? |
I've put a question out to Captain 20's breeder for the answer. Who knows what we'll learn?! Should be fun.
Now I'm digging into my chondro book to see if the answer is hidden within its pages. When I have an answer, I will share it with all. I also plan to shoot a handling video tomorrow, but I'm going to do voice-over afterwards so I may not be able to publish right away (the camera's mic makes it sound like I lisp...first time I heard it I thought, "Oh God, no! This can't be! How did this happen?" But Ann heard it too, and she was in the room when I recorded, and she said, "What happened to your voice? You didn't sound like that." So I was relieved, but now I don't trust my camera). The video will attempt to explain what I'm doing, why I do things a certain way, etc.
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